See also: IRC log
<dom> trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Date: 20 May 2009
<danbri> how did trackbot do that? :)
<dom> it's called magic
<renato> string matching
<karl> zqkim, who's on the call
<karl> Last week in the Social Web
<AlexKorth> I again have no clue of who I am on the phone. Experiences with skype, anyone?
<renato> zankim, I am +??P14
I can do if no-one else wants to.
<karl> tinkster, did you did it last week?
<DKA> Scribe: Toby
<scribe> ScribeNick: tinkster
<DKA> ScribeNick: tinkster
DKA: Kicking off with Harry's agenda. Topic #1 is review of last week's minutes. Any objections?
DKA: Discussion of task forces. Lots about this last week. Two proposals from last meeting.
<mischat> can privacy and context merge ?
DKA: Privacy TF, Portability & Arch TF. Karl and Joaquim as possible leaders?
Karl: Joaquim was not interested in leading TF, but in looking at scope of TF to make sure not too broad.
<oshani> +1 to merging privacy and context task forces
<mischat> mtiffiel = mischat
Karl: has been progress on user stories thanks to Oshani and someone else (Mischa?) on Wiki.
<AlexKorth> +1 to merging privacy and context task forces
<karl> User Stories
<mischat> i have also put some text regarding privacy here http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/DiscussionTopics
Karl: Not able to introduce the user stories, but Oshani can.
oshani: User stories - #1 intransitive nature of privacy policies. http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Intransitivity_of_Rules.2FPolicies_Applied_to_Social_Network_Data
<mischat> zakin, muted me
<AlexKorth> what's the app's name?
oshani: #2 Inferences based on Contextual Data http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Inferences_based_on_Contextual_Data
<mischat> harry did those as far as i am aware
mischat: Other user stories were submitted by Harry (who sends regrets).
<bblfish> there's the interesting story of the French TF1 journalist who wrote privately to his MP criticising the hadopi law passing in parliament which found it's way into the hands of the minister, and then into the hands of his employer, who then sacked him.
DKA: danbri made a remark about throwaway identities.
danbri: OpenID - single use
accounts ; how are two different accounts connected to each
... If one OpenID site has something nice to say about me, then the karma associated with that account, should carry across to other IDs.
DKA: This sounds plausible. Is it related to privacy?
<scribe> ACTION: danbri to document throwaway IDs on Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Document throwaway IDs on Wiki [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-05-27].
<mischat> i have put some text up re privacy and context
<mischat> i could talk through it
<danbri> ACTION: danbri write up user story about different kinds of "single use" openids (eg. karma) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Write up user story about different kinds of "single use" openids (eg. karma) [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-05-27].
<AlexKorth> throwaway IDs: good point
DKA: any other user stories to
... can mischat elaborate on where to take these stories next?
mischat: was actioned to put up some info on privacy and context. There was no "champion" for Context - if it needs to be merged, then perhaps with Privacy.
<uldis> Zakim: mute me
mischat: People benefit from context - one of the main benefits of social networks. There's a tension between privacy and involvement in a network.
<oshani> there has been some work on co-ownership of data on SNs : see http://www2009.eprints.org/53/1/p521.pdf
mischat: Talked about privacy and
removing unwanted information. Garlik did a survey of
government agencies and UK Data Protection Act.
... Should we look at privacy policies of current social networks?
<danbri> makes sense to me too
<mischat> i wrote about this recently http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/17123/1/ohara_et_al_idis_lifelogging.pdf
DKA: Privacy and context go hand in hand. Being tagged in a photo could invade your privacy. Some regulations are EU-wide. Some similar work in US?
<karl> "Privacy doesn't mean anything in isolation."
mischat: Don't want to just look
at policies. I'm a developer, so tagged technology aspect on at
... can people add further comments to Wiki page.
<mischat> it works danbri
danbri: Talked to Flikr last year. One of their concerns about FOAF is reusability of data vs privacy.
<mischat> i tried to allude to this in the text, but good point danbri
<karl> Privacy starts when there is an observer.
danbri: Something on Twitter shows up on other sites very quickly. Aggregate sites.
<bblfish> oops I'd like to add something to this
DKA: danbri has an idea of a universal human right of people taking down information about themselves.
<mischat> ZoneTag project used geo-tagged photos and social networks to do face detection by what was known as Yahoo research berkeley
danbri: One of the strongest arguments companies have about not opening up their data is privacy.
<oshani> I volunteer
<scribe> ACTION: oshani to document takedowns as a user story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Document takedowns as a user story [on Oshani Seneviratne - due 2009-05-27].
<danbri> take downs, by which i mean "if some chunk of social web data about me happens on site x, then flows to y and z ... and then i tell site x to take it down and they do, ... how can site x communicate this to y and z...?"
(what danbri said)
<bblfish> bblfish would like to add himself to speaker queue
<danbri> oshani, is that line above a reasonable start towards user story?
mib_84g3c5: Privacy is important, but portability is too. Shouldn't ignore one at expense of other.
<karl> danbri, could you detail a bit more
<oshani> danbri, we are working on something called "Propagators" with Sussman these days... it sounds like the same idea
<DKA> Maybe it should be renamed "Context and Privacy"
<oshani> so yes
mib_84g3c5: We want to be able to share context in an open, re-usable way.
<mischat> how is context different than any other form of data ?
DKA: agreed. Must look at both topics.
<AlexKorth> mib_84g3c: no, privacy is not sdedecracy but control over data reach. thus, these aspects are inclu
<bblfish> I am on speaker queue, or I don't know how to get onto it
<AlexKorth> * mib_84g3c: no, privacy is not secrecy but control over data reach. thus, these aspects are included
mischat: How is context different than any other form of data? Privacy vs sharing context == privacy vs sharing other data.
<oshani> danbri, with takedowns, we are assuming a push-based model, isn't it?
<danbri> i was trying not to assume a particular protocol model
<uldis> "Data Republishing on the Social Web" touches the subject of propagation (http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-447/paper8.pdf)
<danbri> downstream sites might have responsibility to poll the source
<oshani> okay so both push and pull
<danbri> (i'll meet marc canter for a beer tommorrow btw, he might know what some companies are doing)
karl: Possibility for people to remove data / control data lifetime. DRM is related topic. Right now, there's very little possibility for people to remove data.
DKA: Yes, important issue, but this isn't the only aspect we need to discuss. Henry...
<danbri> the push/pull aspect is part technology or protocol (even if non-computery) ... but the user story i think should be mostly at the level "Hey, i took this off the Web here ,... why is it still on the Web here here and here...." (without trying to specify some kind of impossibly complete DRM-for-people-data)
bblfish: if two people say the
same thing, depending on who says it, it can take on a
... If I say that I' a good worker, it doesn't have the same authority as if my employer says it.
<mischat> agreed bblfish
<oshani> danbri, agreed
bblfish: Can we work this in?
DKA: We need to have a user story for this.
<danbri> bblfish "freedom of expression is important ... to express what they want to say ... but need to keep track of who-said-what"
mischat: Following on from Henry.
Hassan something was thought by authorities to be a terrorist.
They had lots of third-party facts.
... But he had IP addresses, context info that he could use as an alibi.
tinkster: "Providence" is the word to sum this up.
<AlexKorth> so that's related to trust, right
<danbri> (mischat, can you spell his name? wouldn't want to match him against the wrong person ...)
<mischat> yeah i getting a link now
<bblfish> there is the notion of speech acts
<bblfish> to be taken into account
<mischat> I talked about him in this http://eprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/17123/1/ohara_et_al_idis_lifelogging.pdf , this is his personal website http://trackingtransience.net/
DKA: General consensus that
context and privacy belong as one TF and Portability
... We need to decide this and who will lead them.
<mischat> For example, an art professor at Rutgers, Hasan Elahi, who was arrested in
<mischat> 2002 on serious terrorism allegations despite being absolutely innocent of any
<mischat> criminal or terrorist activity, has taken to lifelogging and posting the information on
<mischat> the Web as a pre-emptive alibi
karl: What would be the deliverables for the TFs? A document? A section for the general report?
<mischat> For example, an art professor at Rutgers, Hasan Elahi, who was arrested in 2002 on serious terrorism allegations despite being absolutely innocent of any criminal or terrorist activity, has taken to lifelogging and posting the information on
<mischat> the Web as a pre-emptive alibi.
DKA: The deliverable should be something which flows into XG report.
<danbri> all kinds of other goodness might come out of TFs, ... but they should always keep in mind we need good materials for our final publication
DKA: Once we set up a task force, the leader would need to set up discussions and generally lead the TF, but somebody else might be assigned as editor for the TF's deliverables.
<mischat> are there templates for these things ?
<danbri> (no templates yet afaik)
karl: A template would help a
... We need user stories, what kind of solutions could exist.
<DKA> This is an example xg report, for web content labels (which flowed into POWDER): http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/wcl/XGR-report/
<scribe> ACTION: karl to produce a template for TF deliverables. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Produce a template for TF deliverables. [on Karl Dubost - due 2009-05-27].
<danbri> i've added takedown text from here into http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Document_Takedowns.3F_Propagators
DKA: Good example XG report -
- we need TF chairs, but also good wordsmiths.
... Can we talk about invited guests, now?
<mischat> so what are the task forces?
<AlexKorth> TFs: fine
<DKA> "Context & Privacy" , "Data Portability & Architectures"
<danbri> (1 mins, looking for a link)
DKA: Proposed TFs : "Context & Privacy" , "Data Portability & Architectures". Also Christine has offered to lead work on business and landscape, which are part of work of XG, not a TF.
<oshani> +1 to the 2 task forces
tinkster: I'm happy with these. Architectures = Distrib Arch, right?
<wonsuk> +1 for 2 TF
<mischat> danbri: I put in the "Data Protection" user story in a rush this morning, I wanted to hint at what you have put placeholders for, so please feel free to remove/mangle as appropriate
<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to store links re invited guests ... http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests and
DKA: People should think about whether they want to lead.
danbri: There's two pages on Wiki
- Invited Guests page.
... contributed by Harry, cleaned by danbri.
<mischat> i have added in some people in context and privacy (people should feel free to delete as appropriate)
danbri: Other page is
DiscussionTopics. Better to discuss specific topics than just
bringing people in for open-ended talks.
... First topic suggested is widget platforms. Can we do something useful here by putting people in touch who aren't currently working with each other?
... vCard/PortableContext/FOAF is another one suggested by Harry.
<mischat> perhaps I should move the privacy and context stuff out....
DKA: Involved with widgets. This is something we should look at, but after Widgets F2F, 9-11 June.
<danbri> DKA: art barstow pushed this (widgets discussion) til after their f2f ... 9th to 11th june
DKA: We should have someone from Opera represented as a guest.
danbri: I could chase Chaals.
DKA: Mark (?) would with Chaals and might be a candidate.
<scribe> ACTION: danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Find someone from Opera to talk Widgets. [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-05-27].
danbri: Not completely convinced that vCard discussion is best way of doing this. Would be happy if everyone used FOAF, but that might be a conflict of interest.
danbri: When is the right stage to bring in non-RDF-converts?
<AlexKorth> kick-out music
<karl> ooooh it is the music of the group!
<uldis> yeah, we have music! :)
<AlexPassant> wow :-)
The official SWXG anthem is playing again.
<bblfish> yes, we had that before
<danbri> ok everyone be quiet
<AdamB> it must be our theme song
<AlexKorth> -1 on music
<bblfish> It's not me
bblfish: I'm not music source.
<AdamB> henrystory is our official composer
Everyone else: yes, you are.
DKA: is it our role to get groups to work out their problems in our conference calls?
<karl> I wonder if henrystory music enters in the privacy & context section.
<bblfish> very difficult to proove my innocence....
danbri: very different dynamics
between "protocol people" and "schema people". RDF world allows
various different schemas to play in one model.
... Protocol work is more about software architecture.
tinkster: FOAF could certainly benefit from some vCard stuff. (tel, adr)
<AlexKorth> does TF "Data Portability & Architectures" end up with protocol and exchange format recommendations anyway?
<danbri> can it be done as fact-finding exercise? with some template ...
<danbri> eg. issues faced, opportunities, plans, ....?
DKA: wants to avoid conference calls entirely consisting of arguments between two external groups.
<bblfish> these vocabs probably all fit together one way or another
<mischat> i wonder if we should invite experts when we have some good questions ready ?
DKA: But good to identify communities working on same problem but in isolation.
<AlexKorth> mischat, right. we should collect and agree on questions for our guests.
DKA: Wiki page for discovering overlapping topics/communities.
danbri: Can we have a template
for collecting info from communities "what have you achieved
over last year? what problems have you had?"
... Anyone think this is useful? Do you have any ideas about what these templates should look like?
<mischat> i think it is a good idea, i wouldn't know where to start with template
<danbri> [sound of silence]
<pchampin> just like mischat :)
<danbri> ACTION: danbri sketch a 5 line template for interaction with other groups (cf InvitedExperts, DiscussionTopics) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Sketch a 5 line template for interaction with other groups (cf InvitedExperts, DiscussionTopics) [on Dan Brickley - due 2009-05-27].
DKA: Coming to end of hour.
... proposal about changing time of meeting?
... Two hour meeting, with second hour for a task force. We should defer this until TFs established.
<mischat> can we have section in the wiki for the task forces ? I could move the text i wrote to that section from the http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/DiscussionTopics section
<Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to ask about SPARQL WG liaison
<danbri> there was a lot of b/g noise there
AlexPassant: Should we have a
liason with SPARQL WG?
... Alex can act as a liason.
<danbri> re liaison with SPARQL ,are there specific technical scenarios that are relevant to the two groups? eg. 1. Oauth for SPARQL protocol 2. SPARQL extensions for social graph analytics
DKA: Yes, this seems useful. Can this go on the Wiki. We need a liason wiki page.
<mischat> and the federated sparql query ?
<danbri> do those examples make sense?
<danbri> yep and federated
<scribe> ACTION: AlexPassant to create a liasons list on the Wiki and list himself for SPARQL. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/05/20-swxg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Create a liasons list on the Wiki and list himself for SPARQL. [on Alexandre Passant - due 2009-05-27].
<AlexKorth> bye all
<mischat> bye all
Don't know where, don't know when.
<mischat> danbri: I will take an action to move the privacy text from your DiscussionTopics
<mischat> karl: would be nice to hear your views on the privacy/context stuff on the wiki, being the task force lead and all
<AlexPassant> danbri mischat : status of current SPARQL features proposed by the WG after the first F2F http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2009/05/19/sparql_working_group_holds_1st_face_to_f
<mischat> yeah, i have seen that
<karl> mischat: will do that today :)
<mischat> karl: great
<danbri> mischat, oh it's fine there ... i was just suprised to see the page grew :)
<AlexPassant> danbri: oauth would make sens for the protocol and update, indeed
<mischat> swh once again apologies for not being here
<mischat> he is another person which will join this talks, and is on the sparql WG too
<danbri> the rough idea for that page originally, ... was that we should collected topical themes before pulling in outsiders
<danbri> ideally with specific questions or concrete issues that conclusions might be reached around
<mischat> that makes sense
<mischat> i will tidy up the markup
<danbri> crap i'm still in zakim even
<mischat> wrote it in a hurry, right bye for now, back to coding :)
<mischat> bye all
<danbri> bye all!
s/^ACTION: /ACTION: /g
Seems to be there to me. Hit reload?
<oshani_> tinkster, yes now I see it
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