HTML Weekly Teleconference

23 Apr 2009

See also: IRC log


+1.218.349.aaaa, Sam, annevk, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb, ChrisWilson, Laura, smedero, MikeSmith, Julian, Masinter, LHSilli




<MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 23 April 2009

<pimpbot> planet: WebKit's week - #8 <11http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2009/04/23/WebKit-s-week-8>

<rubys> lets give it 2 more minutes, then cover what we can with the people we have, and then call it a week. Agreed?

rubys, sounds fine

<MikeSmith> rubys: yeah

<masinter> i can participate via IRC but can't dial in at the moment, sorry

<MikeSmith> masinter, it will likely be a relatively short call

<masinter> I had an action item which I can report on; TAG discussion on versioning will continue today.

<scribe> scribe: annevk

<MikeSmith> action-103?

<trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103


<trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

SR: What is the status of Lachy on this action?

AvK: I think he is waiting for the other editor to move ahead (re about URLs)

SR: If we page down we see that more actions are assigned to Lachy

AvK: dunno about those

<smedero> Looks like joseph hasn't committed a change to the spec since early April: http://github.com/josephholsten/about-uri-scheme/commits/master/

<pimpbot> Title: Commit History for josephholsten's about-uri-scheme - GitHub (at github.com)


<trackbot> ISSUE-56 -- Assess whether "URLs" section/definition conflicts with Web architecture -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-56 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)


<trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<rubys> larry, care to comment?

DanC, any updates?

<masinter> the TAG discussed versioning last week, and is scheduled again today

<rubys> anything else worth reporting on the subject this week?

<masinter> email threads on www-tag, i think the discussion so far looks like it will be productive


<trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate document that is a normative language reference and if so what are the requirements -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59

MS: The actions are still not completed

SR: New target?

MS: One week from now

SR: Ok

MS: Next week's call

<masinter> I am out next week, unfortunately


<trackbot> ACTION-119 -- Michael(tm) Smith to push HTML diffs document and HTML5 out for another public draft -- due 2009-04-23 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/119

MS: I moved it to PENDINGREVIEW since they have now been published; that's done

SR: sounds good
... I think that's it for the action items that are due. Did I miss any?


SR: Towards the end of my agenda I listed an outlook to the future. Comments?

<masinter> i'm finally on the phone if there was anything i missed

<masinter> the schedule is aggressive

LM: the schedule is aggressive

CW: although the schedule is aggressive the actions it forces us into I'm in favor of
... it forces us into the prioritization exercise

LM: there was a question for me earlier that I wanted to address
... the TAG discussion is continuing and I'm open to questions

DS: Are you guys looking into tests? It's not necessary for LC but it's worthwhile to have them.

SR: Any volunteers?

CW: Are you asking for a person to organize the test suite or writing the tests?

<MikeSmith> takkaria volunteered to take the lead on managing the test suite

<MikeSmith> dunno if he still has time to do that or not

SR: Either works fine. I'm personally in favor of not doing anything that's not required for which there are no volunteers.

DS: [...] for which there is a place or framework?

CW: at some point we need a framework; not a bunch of tests floating around the interwebs

<MikeSmith> takkaria = Andi Sidwell

CW: we had a person appointed but he was going to be unavailable for a couple of months?

DS: can we create an issue for this?

MS: he hasn't been around much on IRC so I'm sceptic

<Philip> takkaria stated (some time ago) that he wouldn't have time in the near future for HTML stuff

<Philip> (Stated in this channel, in particular)

MS: there was nobody making decisions on frameworks and doing the tests

<Philip> and that it would be sensible to look for someone else to do the test stuff

MS: So I asked takkaria to take the responsibility to decide all the basics so we could get started

AvK: Andi had indeed said on IRC recently that he doesn't have enough time

SR: I commend his honesty

<Philip> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090216#l-267

SR: do you still think it's useful to have an action DS?

<Philip> # [20:33] <takkaria> news on the testsuite front:

<Philip> # [20:34] <takkaria> I'm afraid I'm not going to have time to do anything with it for a while, so someone else is best taking it on

DS: I don't have enough time.
... [missed]

SR: I hear interest from CW?

CW: I'm certainly passionate about tests.

SR: would it be sensible to have a repository where people can throw things in?

CW: we can start there
... getting the tests reviewed is hard

<Philip> There's a CVS repository set up for tests, but people were having ideas that it'd be better to put them on Git/Mercurial

CW: we need to track whether tests have been reviewed
... AvK you are actually in the CSS WG talking about this right now

[I am, yes. It's slightly painful :) ]

DS: There already is a test repository right?

<smedero> I thought there were also issues with the software licenses that could be used for a test

MS: yes, fairly trivial

DS: we can create a tracker product
... we can argue about the best way of doing it or we can do something with what we have right now
... use the review process that we have used for SVG
... not ideal, but it's a start; can see what needs changing for HTML

<Philip> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite has some test-related thoughts and links

DS: if I have a body of 10-20 tests I volunteer to start; just to get the ball rolling
... put together a review process, test repository

CW: Adrien pointed out some tests recently on local storage and cross-document messaging

<smedero> http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm

CW: they are offered under a license that allows you to do whatever you want (same as CSS)

<smedero> Sees DOM Storage and XDM test on that site

<masinter> maybe there's some cross-group test?

<Philip> I think Web Storage is now meant to be handled by the WebApps WG?

<smedero> There's also ARIA test from Microsoft here: http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/aria.htm

<smedero> dunno if there's any cross-over....

[Scribe misses some discussion here from DS, LM, and CW.]

LM: Need some coordination maybe. Some tests go beyond the boundary of WGs.

CW: starting with unit testing would be a good idea

DS: absolutely, but you have to start somewhere
... start something up, transform it later

LM: not so much boundaries, but layers
... CSS on top of HTML

DS: I meant boundaries between technologies

<Philip> (I think http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests is a fairly complete list of current tests for HTML5)

[obviously that part isn't minuted in full detail either]

DS: I'll take an action item on this to be done in two weeks, but I won't be here in two weeks.
... you can still discuss it because it'll be done

<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we do not want to begin storing test cases without having them reviewed

MS: I just wanted to say that we don't want to check in testcases without proper review.
... It's one thing to take a suite from Microsoft versus taking tests from anyone.

SR: Maybe have a unreviewed folder for those?

<Philip> MikeSmith, on the other hand it's easier to develop and start reviewing test cases when they're organised in a centralised repository

MS: I'd rather have links to remote tests so authors can update the tests independently.
... We have that for validator.nu too.
... Simple JSON structure that points to the various external tests.
... Just have a dump of tests without the person feeling responsible for fixing them is not too useful.

<Philip> External tests turn into 404s over time, which doesn't sound good

DS: while I agree with you in principle. I'm not sure I want to solve a problem we don't know the bounds of

MS: fine with me. I'm just talking out of my [missed] here. I just want a person that feels responsible and sets it up.

DS: I think we need a team.

MS: that's fairly hypothetical.

DS: I will email saying that this is important. And promise them cookies and beer.

MS: We don't need the first in line. We need someone that is committed.

DS: Maybe someone from the browsers?

LM: We're trying to get together the plug-in community and figure out if we can improve things.
... I'm soliciting folks who are interested in pursuing this.
... and also [missed]

<masinter> also thoughts on venue, is this in scope?

<shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html

DS: LM I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but the links above are what the SVG WG is working on and I think there is some overlap

<ChrisWilson> I just fwded the info on our test cases to Doug...

DS: with plug-ins. The first link is how SVG can be integrated by reference.
... If SVG is included as image or CSS background, etc.
... the second spec talks about having the parameters exposed on the Window interface of the embedded object
... a lot of this stuff is solved for e.g. Flash

LM: We talked to the people who did the Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader plug-ins. We also want to talk to people who do e.g. Java.
... requirements such as making the back button work. Cross-domain security policies.

<takkaria> whoever looks at tests might want to look at http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Testsuite which I put together a few months ago

DS: It would be interesting to see what issues you are facing

LM: I have a preliminary doc

AvK: how does this affect HTML?

<takkaria> oh, ignore me, Philip already linked it. my bad

LM: new HTML features should work with existing content
... existing content uses plug-ins; so new features need to interact with plug-ins

SR: anything else?

JR: I was looking at the @profile issue.
... If nothing is done will it be gone from HTML5?

SR: Yes.

JR: What will be needed for this not to happen?
... [something about a bug]
... I'd be in favor of an erratum for HTML4 and a similar fix for HTML5

SR: If there is consensus for a change I'd be in favor, but I'm not sure if there is

<Laura> q

SR: Anything else?

LC: does the same hold true for the summary attribute?

SR: yes
... the deadline is not next week, but if something needs to be done we do need consensus
... anything else?
... ok, adjourned

masinter, the generated minutes exclude /me lines

someone should prolly fix the minutes up a bit if we think they're useful

e.g. introduce a few topic lines

usually the topic of discourse was introduced while i was already writing things down so there was not really enough time to make it all fancy

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.135 (CVS log)
$Date: 2009/04/23 17:01:30 $