XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

18 Feb 2009


See also: IRC log



Gregory_Rosmaita, McCarron, Steven, mgylling, Alessio
Roland, MarkB




<trackbot> Date: 18 February 2009

<scribe> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html

News, Notes & Agenda Additions

SP: sorry sent out agenda late;

GJR: action item update - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/49
... we voting on sending ARIA 1.0 to last call today
... MCooper will provide Shane with updated info

SP: update at last call? should it not express only what is in rec?

SM: doesn't
... reflects what is in ARIA WD, needs to be updated to conform

SP: ok, fair enough
... action item - send PER transition request -- done; will keep my eye on it; should hear within a week
... action to write intro to XHTML2

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml2.html

SP: created very draf first version
... a) very early draft; b) in "telegram" style - listed what needs to be explained and intent of each section; sections need populating; comments on structure welcome
... composed of lots of pieces; have to check RDFa example for right triples; bit about XFrames that probably needs to be cut, but is placeholder until we decide what to do about XFrames; sketched out XForms section
... any comments welcome

GJR: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/50 is still open (didn't finish - hope to do so today)



SP: word level for INS and DEL - normal to do DEL on false plural - dogs = dog<DEL>s</DEL>

GJR: best practice, should point out at least the dangers of using internal INS and DEL for rendering especially alternate rendering
... no, i still need to finish compiling the document
... will email list when ready to review

SP: voting on going to last call

GJR: correct
... plan is to get through as soon as possible -- 3 weeks from date of announcement, probably a week from friday

latest ARIA editor's draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria

<ShaneM> I suspect a 3 week last call is a little naive - the rest of the membership needs to read the doc.


<ShaneM> Off topic: quote of the day (from Mark Birbeck):

<ShaneM> There are two aspects to this debate. Some people want RDFa to be added to HTML5, and that browsers do something with it. I'd love to see that too, but then I'd also like to solve world hunger, and teach the world to sing.


SP: amazed at how 1 thread generated so much discussion
... Manu reported back from conference support and interest in RDFa; discussion devolved into HTML5 versus RDFa argument
... quote of the day right on topic!
... discussion is one i had last year at TPAC when i attended HTML WG to discuss RDFa and HTML5; Henri Sivonen still singing the same song against RDFa -- counter arguments to use of RDFa is extensibility, namespacing, and control attributes won't be removed from DOM when document parsed, so RDFa will just work; only problem is validation, and HTML5 doesn't have a validation story


SM: generic validation - http://validator.nu
... thread traffic today - HS' argument interesting; HTML5 does remove attributes from info stack

SP: which ones?

SM: anyone that is in xmlns

SP: how plan to declare version of HTML5

SM: are no versions

SP: either this is the last HTML ever, or need to solve problem
... at some point in future going to have to have another iteration of HTML which will need to be validated; could then have profile to validate HTML5 + RDFa

SM: yesterday's quote of the day from TAG discussion on versioning; HTML5 Issue 41 - precludes extensibility in HTML5

<ShaneM> David Orchard said: This is also directly related to HTML5 WG issue 41, which is that HTML5 currently precludes support for distributed extensibility.

SM: source david orchard

GJR: no support for my "role for HTML5" proposal - http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute

SM: problem is don't want distributed extensibility - want a locked-down developer-centric language

SP: done our best to make XHTML markup useable by everyone

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say sam ruby has action to discuss HTML5 and XHTML alignment - Janina Sajka, co-chair of PF should be at meeting

SP: haven't received request from Sam


SP: good approach

GJR: would like Janina Sajka to be included in meeting

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say HTML5 new PWD pushed without consultation with WG



SP: objection from DanC about 1.0 PER

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml1-20081121/

SP: DanC stated not enough time for community review


SM: make sure reviewing right draft of Media Types (16 January 2009)

SP: reference from normative section to the document

"Many people want to use XHTML to author their web pages, but are confused about the best ways to deliver those pages in such a way that they will be processed correctly by various user agents. This Note contains suggestions about how to format XHTML to ensure it is maximally portable, and how to deliver XHTML to various user agents - even those that do not yet support XHTML natively. This document is intended to be used by document authors who want to use XHTM

SP: complaint is in reference to Section 5

SM: think previous REC had same pointer -- pointed to appendix C, now points to Media Types

SP: was concern about a normative section pointed to from an informative section
... what is normative about Section 5?

SM: nothing

SP: can we mark that "This section is informative"?
... section 5 should be non-normative, and provide pointer to January 2009 draft
... definitely have had opportunity to review

<Steven> I presented it to the HCG

RESOLUTION: reply to DanC's comments on PER of XHTML 1.0 to state that Section 5 (of XHTML 1.0 PER) is non-normative and provide pointer to 16 January 2006 draft of XHTML Media Types - Second Edition

Burning Issues

SP: discussion of XHTML2 and HTML5 combined?
... at Forms f2f, realized don't have dates for virtual face2face for XHTML2 WG -- do we want to plan a longer session (day, day and a half) to work on XHTML2 draft
... need Roland to set but should start thinking about timing

AC: agree


Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
Found ScribeNick: oedipus
Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, McCarron, Steven, mgylling, Alessio
Present: Gregory_Rosmaita McCarron Steven mgylling Alessio
Regrets: Roland MarkB
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0033
Found Date: 18 Feb 2009
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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