IRC log of xhtml on 2009-02-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:40:06 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-irc

14:40:07 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:40:07 [Zakim]

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Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2

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ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes

14:40:10 [trackbot]

Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

14:40:10 [trackbot]

Date: 18 February 2009

14:40:42 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2009Feb/0033

14:40:46 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

14:40:59 [Steven]

Regrets: Roland

14:41:58 [oedipus]

Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

14:42:02 [oedipus]

ScribeNick: oedipus

14:43:23 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:43:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:43:32 [ShaneM]

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14:44:45 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

14:44:52 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:45:20 [oedipus]

previous: http://www.w3.org/2009/02/11-xhtml-minutes.html

14:45:23 [Zakim]

+McCarron

14:45:30 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:45:30 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:45:32 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:46:15 [mgylling]

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14:46:35 [alessio]

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14:47:07 [Zakim]

+??P4

14:47:23 [mgylling]

Zakim, ??P4 is mgylling

14:47:23 [Zakim]

+mgylling; got it

14:47:40 [oedipus]

TOPIC: News, Notes & Agenda Additions

14:47:59 [Zakim]

+??P6

14:48:07 [alessio]

zakim, ??P6

14:48:07 [Zakim]

I don't understand '??P6', alessio

14:48:12 [alessio]

zakim, ??P6 is Alessio

14:48:12 [Zakim]

+Alessio; got it

14:48:28 [oedipus]

SP: sorry sent out agenda late;

14:48:59 [oedipus]

GJR: action item update - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/49

14:49:45 [oedipus]

GJR: we voting on sending ARIA 1.0 to last call today

14:50:01 [oedipus]

GJR: MCooper will provide Shane with updated info

14:50:15 [oedipus]

SP: update at last call? should it not express only what is in rec?

14:50:19 [oedipus]

SM: doesn't

14:50:33 [oedipus]

SM: reflects what is in ARIA WD, needs to be updated to conform

14:50:51 [oedipus]

SP: ok, fair enough

14:51:47 [oedipus]

SP: action item - send PER transition request -- done; will keep my eye on it; should hear within a week

14:51:57 [oedipus]

SP: action to write intro to XHTML2

14:52:02 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/xhtml2.html

14:52:05 [oedipus]

SP: created very draf first version

14:52:50 [oedipus]

SP: a) very early draft; b) in "telegram" style - listed what needs to be explained and intent of each section; sections need populating; comments on structure welcome

14:53:41 [oedipus]

SP: composed of lots of pieces; have to check RDFa example for right triples; bit about XFrames that probably needs to be cut, but is placeholder until we decide what to do about XFrames; sketched out XForms section

14:53:53 [oedipus]

SP: any comments welcome

14:54:44 [oedipus]

GJR: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/50 is still open (didn't finish - hope to do so today)

14:55:18 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup#Investigating_INS_and_DEL_.28and_perhaps_MOD.29

14:55:26 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/ProposedElements/ModificationMarkup

14:58:39 [oedipus]

SP: word level for INS and DEL - normal to do DEL on false plural - dogs = dog<DEL>s</DEL>

14:59:44 [oedipus]

GJR: best practice, should point out at least the dangers of using internal INS and DEL for rendering especially alternate rendering

15:00:13 [oedipus]

GJR: no, i still need to finish compiling the document

15:00:36 [oedipus]

GJR: will email list when ready to review

15:03:18 [oedipus]

SP: voting on going to last call

15:03:22 [oedipus]

GJR: correct

15:03:59 [oedipus]

GJR: plan is to get through as soon as possible -- 3 weeks from date of announcement, probably a week from friday

15:04:19 [oedipus]

latest ARIA editor's draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria

15:05:15 [ShaneM]

I suspect a 3 week last call is a little naive - the rest of the membership needs to read the doc.

15:05:24 [oedipus]

agreed

15:06:08 [ShaneM]

Off topic: quote of the day (from Mark Birbeck):

15:06:08 [ShaneM]

There are two aspects to this debate. Some people want RDFa to be added to HTML5, and that browsers do something with it. I'd love to see that too, but then I'd also like to solve world hunger, and teach the world to sing.

15:06:45 [oedipus]

TOPIC: RDFa in HTML5

15:07:05 [oedipus]

SP: amazed at how 1 thread generated so much discussion

15:07:55 [oedipus]

SP: Manu reported back from conference support and interest in RDFa; discussion devolved into HTML5 versus RDFa argument

15:08:13 [oedipus]

SP: quote of the day right on topic!

15:09:37 [oedipus]

SP: discussion is one i had last year at TPAC when i attended HTML WG to discuss RDFa and HTML5; Henri Sivonen still singing the same song against RDFa -- counter arguments to use of RDFa is ; attributes won't be removed from DOM when document parsed, so RDFa will just work; only problem is validation, and HTML5 doesn't have a validation story

15:09:41 [oedipus]

validator.nu

15:09:59 [oedipus]

SM: generic validation - http://validator.nu

15:10:21 [oedipus]

SM: thread traffic today - HS' argument interesting; HTML5 does remove attributes from info stack

15:10:24 [oedipus]

SP: which ones?

15:10:32 [oedipus]

SM: anyone that is in xmlns

15:11:40 [oedipus]

s/use of RDFa is ;/use of RDFa is extensibility, namespacing, and control

15:11:49 [oedipus]

SP: how plan to declare version of HTML5

15:11:53 [oedipus]

SM: are no versions

15:12:03 [oedipus]

SP: either this is the last HTML ever, or need to solve problem

15:12:30 [oedipus]

SP: at some point in future going to have to have another iteration of HTML which will need to be validated; could then have profile to validate HTML5 + RDFa

15:13:17 [oedipus]

SM: yesterday's quote of the day from TAG discussion on versioning; HTML5 Issue 41 - precludes extensibility in HTML5

15:13:23 [ShaneM]

David Orchard said: This is also directly related to HTML5 WG issue 41, which is that HTML5 currently precludes support for distributed extensibility.

15:13:24 [oedipus]

SM: source david orchard

15:14:01 [oedipus]

GJR: no support for my "role for HTML5" proposal - http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/RoleAttribute

15:14:19 [oedipus]

SM: problem is don't want distributed extensibility - want a locked-down developer-centric language

15:14:35 [oedipus]

SP: done our best to make XHTML markup useable by everyone

15:15:21 [oedipus]

q+ to say sam ruby has action to discuss HTML5 and XHTML alignment - Janina Sajka, co-chair of PF should be at meeting

15:15:25 [oedipus]

q?

15:15:39 [oedipus]

ack owe

15:15:42 [oedipus]

ack oe

15:15:42 [Zakim]

oedipus, you wanted to say sam ruby has action to discuss HTML5 and XHTML alignment - Janina Sajka, co-chair of PF should be at meeting

15:16:59 [oedipus]

SP: haven't received request from Sam

15:17:25 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/105

15:17:48 [oedipus]

SP: good approach

15:19:08 [oedipus]

GJR: would like Janina Sajka to be included in meeting

15:19:28 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:19:28 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:20:39 [oedipus]

q+ to say HTML5 new PWD pushed without consultation with WG

15:21:30 [oedipus]

ack oe

15:21:30 [Zakim]

oedipus, you wanted to say HTML5 new PWD pushed without consultation with WG

15:22:56 [Steven]

Regrets+MarkB

15:25:01 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:25:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:27:04 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/html/wg/markup-spec/

15:27:54 [oedipus]

TOPIC: XHTML 1.0 PER

15:27:58 [oedipus]

SP: objection from DanC about 1.0 PER

15:27:59 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml1-20081121/

15:28:17 [oedipus]

SP: stated not enough time for community review

15:28:30 [oedipus]

s/stated not/DanC stated not/

15:29:09 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2009/ED-xhtml-media-types-20090116

15:29:38 [oedipus]

SM: make sure reviewing right draft of Media Types (16 January 2009)

15:29:47 [oedipus]

SP: reference from normative section to the document

15:30:26 [oedipus]

"Many people want to use XHTML to author their web pages, but are confused about the best ways to deliver those pages in such a way that they will be processed correctly by various user agents. This Note contains suggestions about how to format XHTML to ensure it is maximally portable, and how to deliver XHTML to various user agents - even those that do not yet support XHTML natively. This document is intended to be used by document authors who want to use XHTM

15:31:02 [oedipus]

SP: complaint is in reference to Section 5

15:31:20 [oedipus]

SM: think previous REC had same pointer -- pointed to appendix C, now points to Media Types

15:31:44 [oedipus]

SP: was concern about a normative section pointed to from an informative section

15:31:51 [oedipus]

SP: what is normative about Section 5?

15:31:53 [oedipus]

SM: nothing

15:32:02 [oedipus]

SP: can we mark that "This section is informative"?

15:32:52 [oedipus]

SP: section 5 should be non-normative, and provide pointer to January 2009 draft

15:33:15 [oedipus]

SP: definitely have had opportunity to review

15:34:50 [Steven]

I presented it to the HCG

15:34:56 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: reply to DanC's comments on PER of XHTML 1.0 to state that Section 5 (of XHTML 1.0 PEF) is non-normative and provide pointer to 16 January 2006 draft of XHTML Media Types - Second Edition

15:35:21 [oedipus]

s/PEF/PER/

15:35:47 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Burning Issues

15:35:59 [oedipus]

SP: discussion of XHTML2 and HTML5 combined?

15:37:20 [oedipus]

SP: at Forms f2f, realized don't have dates for virtual face2face for XHTML2 WG -- do we want to plan a longer session (day, day and a half) to work on XHTML2 draft

15:37:41 [oedipus]

SP: need Roland to set but should start thinking about timing

15:37:50 [oedipus]

AC: agree

15:38:10 [oedipus]

ADJOURN

15:38:24 [Zakim]

-McCarron

15:38:27 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:38:29 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:38:29 [Zakim]

-mgylling

15:38:38 [oedipus]

zakim, please part

15:38:38 [Zakim]

leaving. As of this point the attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, McCarron, Steven, mgylling, Alessio

15:38:38 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xhtml

15:38:43 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:38:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:41:40 [alessio]

.

15:43:49 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

15:43:49 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items