See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 20 November 2008
<pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
<scribe> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html
<pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
OK
<scribe> scribenick: MikeSmith
<scribe> scribe: MikeSmith
<ChrisWilson> Any additions to the agenda?
<Julian> +1 for ping
DanC: suggest adding @ping to
agenda
... buried in message from Roy Fielding posting recently
<DanC> issue-1?
<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- hyperlink auditing requires use of unsafe HTTP method -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/1
<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-1 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<DanC> wrong one...
<DanC> issue-2?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2
<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<smedero> there are three different ISSUEs on ping in the tracker... though none of them address the more fundamental "should we be doing this" question...
going... going... gone
ChrisWilson: MikeSmith, you suggested talking about the authoring guide...
<ChrisWilson> Lachy, did you have any updates on the authoring guide?
Lachy, you around?
<Lachy> not yet
<Lachy> well, I started updating the introduction based on gsnedders' feedback at TPAC
<Lachy> but now that I'm back in Oslo, I can start working on it more
Lachy, cool
Lachy, karl gonna be able to help next month too
<Lachy> has this telcon just started?
ChrisWilson: Julian, any updates about your work last week that relate to HTML?
<DanC> MikeSmith, you said something about Lachy being more available after selectors API work cools down... ah... Lachy is here.
Lachy, yeah
<Lachy> I'll call in
Julian: work is progressing
nicely
... is there anything in particular that you want to know
about?
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note some IETF liaison requests
<Lachy> DanC, yeah, Selectors API has now been published as an LC again and will be going to CR very soon, since there isn't much to do with it now. So I should have plenty of time to spend on the authoring guide
Julian: in theory what we're doing should effect any spec that relies on it, [because of teh nature of the work we doing just being to refine the existing spec]
DanC: somebody passed some info along to an IETF area director
<Julian> DanC: so that probably was about WebSockets?
DanC: about HTML5 spec [encroaching on HTTP territory]
<DanC> concern about a profile of HTTP being included in the HTML spec ... WebSockets
ChrisWilson: DanC, any futher acttion to add to that?
<DanC> websockets should prolly get added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
<pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
DanC: I have not cracked the requirements-process nut, but that one should prolly get added
<takkaria> websockets isn't a profile of HTTP, though
ChrisWilson: I tihnk we need to go through all of those again
<Julian> for the record -- httpbis status -- http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/
<pimpbot> Title: Httpbis Status Pages (at tools.ietf.org)
<DanC> it's at least perceived as such a profile, takkaria
ChrisWilson: goes back to the long-standing topic about what to do about [aligning the work with teh charter]
Julian
<DanC> (hmm... give myself an action to add an issue, or add the issue here/now? is "WebSockets requirement?" enough of an issue description?)
<DanC> (guess I'll go with an action...)
<ChrisWilson> DanC - add the issue
Julian oh Julian - update on the HTTP auth topic?
<DanC> ok
<DanC> ISSUE: WebSockets requirement? in scope?
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-62 - WebSockets requirement? in scope? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/62/edit .
ChrisWilson: update on HTML integration point with HTTP auth issue?
<DanC> issue-13?
<trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Handling HTTP status 401 responses / User Agent Authentication Forms -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13
<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
Julian: I think discussion during the TPAC showed that the majority of the HTML WG is not interested in working on it
DanC: I don't think that Hixie is
convinced that it's bad enough to do something about
... I'm on the fence because I've not seen any proposed
solution that I know how to deploy
... one approach is to say that we don't plan to tackle it in
this version fo HTML5
ChrisWilson: we can just leave it on the issue pile...
DanC: leaving it where it is is
the default
... question is, is it time to decide to postpone it now [til a
later version of HTML, if at all]
... rubys, thoughts on this?
rubys: not really
DanC: adrianba ?
adrianba: [expressing that postponing it seems reasonable]
DanC: if we do postpone it, we
should do it noisily
... any useful venue to make noise?
<Julian> other than the mailing list?
<Lachy> I think it should definitely be postponed at least until there is some real proposal to move forward with, but it seems like it's out of scope for this group
Julian: [mentions that certain proposed solutions work fine in browsers, but not, e.g., in feed readers]
<DanC> . ACTION DanC: propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable
<DanC> ACTION: DanC to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-11-27].
<DanC> action-86 due 2008-12-31
<trackbot> ACTION-86 Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable due date now 2008-12-31
ChrisWilson: just saying I don't know what set of people especially care about it
<Julian> fine with me, as long as we agree it *is* an issue
<ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
<pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
<ChrisWilson> action-78 - I will close this once I've read through Ian's edits
<ChrisWilson> action-80?
<trackbot> ACTION-80 -- Chris Wilson to ian Hickson to write an assessment of possible sections to split out and estimated hours of work -- due 2008-11-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/80
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-80 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
action-78?
<trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Chris Wilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4 -- due 2008-10-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<DanC> action-78: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
<trackbot> ACTION-78 Suggestion text for 1.4.4 notes added
<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
<DanC> ACTION-34 due 31 Dec 2008
<trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference due date now 31 Dec 2008
Lachy: about authoring guide, at the f2f we talked about end of December as a milestone
<DanC> -1 telcon next week
<ChrisWilson> action-62?
<trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<DanC> action-62 due 4 Dec 2008
<trackbot> ACTION-62 get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization due date now 4 Dec 2008
MikeSmith: I'll follow up with Roland
<DanC> action-84?
<trackbot> ACTION-84 -- Joshue O Connor to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week -- due 2008-11-20 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/84
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-84 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
Joshue: I have some feedback from PF on this issue which I'm prepared to share
<ChrisWilson> action-75?
<trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-10-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
MikeSmith: I think we are ready to have a group survey about @profile
<DanC> close action-77
<trackbot> ACTION-77 Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG closed
issue-72?
<trackbot> ISSUE-72 does not exists
<DanC> (the josh-not-in-tracker bug got fixed. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ )
<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Issue/Action Summary - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
action-72?
<trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Chris Wilson to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<DanC> ACTION-79 due 4 Dec 2008
<trackbot> ACTION-79 - send email to spark issue-60 due date now 4 Dec 2008
<DanC> looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html ...
<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
<DanC> "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing
<DanC> "
<DanC> action-81: see "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html
<trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for notes added
<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
action-83
<DanC> close action-81
<trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for closed
action-83?
<trackbot> ACTION-83 -- Chris Wilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart -- due 2008-11-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/83
<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-83 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
ChrisWilson: that seems like enough from Tracker
<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)
Joshue: feedback from Al... not much more to add but ...
<Joshue> - in current draft HTML5
Joshue: I was hoping that there may be some news from the HTML WG side
<Joshue> - Wiki anthology of discussion
<Joshue> ** function and performance
Joshue: these comments I'm pasting in are from an e-mail message
<DanC> "on the wiki"? help?
Joshue: maybe I can (re)post this to the public-html list
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
<pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
<Joshue> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
Joshue: that gives a good overview of the issues
<DanC> hmm... it starts with "HTML 5 needs ..."; that seems to presume the conclusion.
Joshue: jgraham smart-headers
algorithm is really good ...
... but still you need a layered approach ...
... still need the markup ...
<DanC> (joshue, you've lost me. if I'm representative at all, you've lost a lot of your audience)
Joshue: chained headers, nested headers ...
<DanC> (but maybe I'm way behind)
Joshue: we talk about the same
thing, but in different ways ...
... they are currently not allowed ...
DanC: that page starts with,
"HTML 5 needs a mechanism that enables..."
... that seems like [a statement of the solution, not a
statement of the problem]
Joshue: maybe the problem needs
to be more explicit
... I can work on that
... problem is that there is a deficiency in the markup on the
HTML5 spec, that doesn't address this problem
DanC: I think [you need a better intro on the page that draws people in]
Joshue: allowing nested/chained
headers seems like a great solution to me
... @scope is poorly supported in AT software
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-9e7b78e86268dbd2771292df3f45bbe0472252bd
<DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-29de33199bf5222d55c4a52b8970245d24bd286f
<pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
<pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)
Joshue: I think the first solution "Allow headers to reference a td" is the best
<DanC> (now scanning the wiki page for arguments against #1 ...)
Joshue: that's it for now [on this topic]
DanC: who has the ball?
... I don't see the arguments against discussed on that Wiki
page
<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
DanC: re-reading now, this is looking a little bit familier
<DanC> (ok... arguments against #1 are under "Rationale: Why Headers Should Not be Included")
<DanC> (checking http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ ...)
<pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
<DanC> ("headers" doesn't occur there)
<Philip> (DanC, the headers things are in "semantics-tables" there)
<DanC> semantics-tables
<Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables
http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables
<pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
<pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)
<DanC> so http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables should work; doesn't seem to. but ok
<DanC> ACTION: Hixie to follow up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie
<DanC> ACTION: ian to follow up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ian
<DanC> trackbot, status
<DanC> ACTION: MikeSmith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-11-27].
<DanC> action-87 due 4 Dec 2008
<trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 4 Dec 2008
<DanC> (pls update the due date with your best guess, MikeSmith )
<dsinger> yes, let's skip it
<ChrisWilson> resolved, no telecon next week.
<DanC> (is this an action from TPAC that didn't get into tracker?)
<Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ has limited documentation on how to check in and check out
<pimpbot> Title: W3C Public CVS Repository (at dev.w3.org)
<DanC> the docs are http://www.w3.org/Project/CVSdoc/
<Lachy> you need to generate an SSH2 key, and send in your public key
[Cynthia will follow up with DanC off-list about getting the doc into CVS]
<smedero> Roy, recently, on Ping: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0316.html
<pimpbot> Title: Re: An HTML language specification vs. a browser specification from Roy T. Fielding on 2008-11-20 (public-html@w3.org from November 2008) (at lists.w3.org)
<smedero> (he's complained about ping in the past on public-html...)
<DanC> issue-2?
<trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2
<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
<smedero> (or, objected... I should say.)
DanC: [summarizing objections to
@ping and Roy's objections in particulars]
... I don't yet understand the arguments against @ping
... seems like taking a hidden-in-script thing and making it
into a declarative mechanism
... would like to have an eyes-open requirements discussion
about this
<Julian> another argument against it is the way it's specified (as POST)
<Lachy> there's a lot of discussion about ping on the whatwg list from 2004/5
Julian: I think it would be
helpful if the spec contained less of that stuff that clearly
does not have a consensus yet in the WG
... and Roy was suggesting things of that class should first be
put forward as separate documents
[adjourned]
<ChrisWilson> adjourned (will continue discussion next week)
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/review?/review/ Succeeded: s/deply/deploy/ Found ScribeNick: MikeSmith Found Scribe: MikeSmith Inferring ScribeNick: MikeSmith WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: ChrisWilson Cynthia_Shelly DanC ISSUE Joshue Julian Lachy Lionheart Microsoft Mike MikeSmith P19 P30 Philip Sam Shawn_Medero Title aaaa action-78 action-81 adele adrianba cyns dsinger inserted pimpbot rubys scribenick smedero takkaria trackbot You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html Found Date: 20 Nov 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html People with action items: danc hixie ian mikesmith[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]