W3C

- DRAFT -

HTML Weekly Teleconference

20 Nov 2008

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Regrets
Chair
ChrisWilson
Scribe
MikeSmith

Contents


 

 

<trackbot> Date: 20 November 2008

<pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)

<scribe> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html

<pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2008-11-20 from Chris Wilson on 2008-11-19 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2008) (at lists.w3.org)

OK

<scribe> scribenick: MikeSmith

<scribe> scribe: MikeSmith

<ChrisWilson> Any additions to the agenda?

Agenda review

<Julian> +1 for ping

DanC: suggest adding @ping to agenda
... buried in message from Roy Fielding posting recently

<DanC> issue-1?

<trackbot> ISSUE-1 -- hyperlink auditing requires use of unsafe HTTP method -- RAISED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/1

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-1 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<DanC> wrong one...

<DanC> issue-2?

<trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<smedero> there are three different ISSUEs on ping in the tracker... though none of them address the more fundamental "should we be doing this" question...

going... going... gone

Authoring guide

ChrisWilson: MikeSmith, you suggested talking about the authoring guide...

<ChrisWilson> Lachy, did you have any updates on the authoring guide?

Lachy, you around?

<Lachy> not yet

<Lachy> well, I started updating the introduction based on gsnedders' feedback at TPAC

<Lachy> but now that I'm back in Oslo, I can start working on it more

HTTPbis

Lachy, cool

Lachy, karl gonna be able to help next month too

<Lachy> has this telcon just started?

ChrisWilson: Julian, any updates about your work last week that relate to HTML?

<DanC> MikeSmith, you said something about Lachy being more available after selectors API work cools down... ah... Lachy is here.

Lachy, yeah

<Lachy> I'll call in

Julian: work is progressing nicely
... is there anything in particular that you want to know about?

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note some IETF liaison requests

<Lachy> DanC, yeah, Selectors API has now been published as an LC again and will be going to CR very soon, since there isn't much to do with it now. So I should have plenty of time to spend on the authoring guide

Julian: in theory what we're doing should effect any spec that relies on it, [because of teh nature of the work we doing just being to refine the existing spec]

DanC: somebody passed some info along to an IETF area director

<Julian> DanC: so that probably was about WebSockets?

DanC: about HTML5 spec [encroaching on HTTP territory]

<DanC> concern about a profile of HTTP being included in the HTML spec ... WebSockets

ChrisWilson: DanC, any futher acttion to add to that?

<DanC> websockets should prolly get added to http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2

<pimpbot> Title: Details on Product HTML Principles/Requirements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

DanC: I have not cracked the requirements-process nut, but that one should prolly get added

<takkaria> websockets isn't a profile of HTTP, though

ChrisWilson: I tihnk we need to go through all of those again

<Julian> for the record -- httpbis status -- http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/

<pimpbot> Title: Httpbis Status Pages (at tools.ietf.org)

<DanC> it's at least perceived as such a profile, takkaria

ChrisWilson: goes back to the long-standing topic about what to do about [aligning the work with teh charter]

Julian

<DanC> (hmm... give myself an action to add an issue, or add the issue here/now? is "WebSockets requirement?" enough of an issue description?)

HTML integration for HTTP auth

<DanC> (guess I'll go with an action...)

<ChrisWilson> DanC - add the issue

Julian oh Julian - update on the HTTP auth topic?

<DanC> ok

<DanC> ISSUE: WebSockets requirement? in scope?

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-62 - WebSockets requirement? in scope? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/62/edit .

ChrisWilson: update on HTML integration point with HTTP auth issue?

<DanC> issue-13?

<trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Handling HTTP status 401 responses / User Agent Authentication Forms -- RAISED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/13

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

Julian: I think discussion during the TPAC showed that the majority of the HTML WG is not interested in working on it

DanC: I don't think that Hixie is convinced that it's bad enough to do something about
... I'm on the fence because I've not seen any proposed solution that I know how to deploy
... one approach is to say that we don't plan to tackle it in this version fo HTML5

ChrisWilson: we can just leave it on the issue pile...

DanC: leaving it where it is is the default
... question is, is it time to decide to postpone it now [til a later version of HTML, if at all]
... rubys, thoughts on this?

rubys: not really

DanC: adrianba ?

adrianba: [expressing that postponing it seems reasonable]

DanC: if we do postpone it, we should do it noisily
... any useful venue to make noise?

<Julian> other than the mailing list?

<Lachy> I think it should definitely be postponed at least until there is some real proposal to move forward with, but it seems like it's out of scope for this group

Julian: [mentions that certain proposed solutions work fine in browsers, but not, e.g., in feed readers]

<DanC> . ACTION DanC: propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable

<DanC> ACTION: DanC to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-11-27].

<DanC> action-86 due 2008-12-31

<trackbot> ACTION-86 Propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable due date now 2008-12-31

ChrisWilson: just saying I don't know what set of people especially care about it

<Julian> fine with me, as long as we agree it *is* an issue

tracker review

<ChrisWilson> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda

<pimpbot> Title: Input for Agenda Planning for the HTML Weekly - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)

<ChrisWilson> action-78 - I will close this once I've read through Ian's edits

<ChrisWilson> action-80?

<trackbot> ACTION-80 -- Chris Wilson to ian Hickson to write an assessment of possible sections to split out and estimated hours of work -- due 2008-11-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/80

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-80 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

action-78?

<trackbot> ACTION-78 -- Chris Wilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4 -- due 2008-10-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/78

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-78 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<DanC> action-78: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html

<trackbot> ACTION-78 Suggestion text for 1.4.4 notes added

<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)

<DanC> ACTION-34 due 31 Dec 2008

<trackbot> ACTION-34 Prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference due date now 31 Dec 2008

Lachy: about authoring guide, at the f2f we talked about end of December as a milestone

<DanC> -1 telcon next week

<ChrisWilson> action-62?

<trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<DanC> action-62 due 4 Dec 2008

<trackbot> ACTION-62 get XHTML 2 WG response to edits around name of XML serialization due date now 4 Dec 2008

MikeSmith: I'll follow up with Roland

<DanC> action-84?

<trackbot> ACTION-84 -- Joshue O Connor to prepare status report on @headers discussion by next week -- due 2008-11-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/84

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-84 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

Joshue: I have some feedback from PF on this issue which I'm prepared to share

<ChrisWilson> action-75?

<trackbot> ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-10-24 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-75 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

MikeSmith: I think we are ready to have a group survey about @profile

<DanC> close action-77

<trackbot> ACTION-77 Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG closed

issue-72?

<trackbot> ISSUE-72 does not exists

<DanC> (the josh-not-in-tracker bug got fixed. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/ )

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Issue/Action Summary - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

action-72?

<trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Chris Wilson to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-72 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<DanC> ACTION-79 due 4 Dec 2008

<trackbot> ACTION-79 - send email to spark issue-60 due date now 4 Dec 2008

<DanC> looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html ...

<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)

<DanC> "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing

<DanC> "

<DanC> action-81: see "8. Content-Type handling and content sniffing" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Oct/0127.html

<trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for notes added

<pimpbot> Title: HTML5 Specification - List of sections and corresponding work estimates from Ian Hickson on 2008-10-27 (public-html@w3.org from October 2008) (at lists.w3.org)

action-83

<DanC> close action-81

<trackbot> ACTION-81 Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for closed

action-83?

<trackbot> ACTION-83 -- Chris Wilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart -- due 2008-11-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/83

<pimpbot> Title: ACTION-83 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

ChrisWilson: that seems like enough from Tracker

@headers update from Joshue

<pimpbot> Title: HTML Weekly Teleconference -- 20 Nov 2008 (at www.w3.org)

Joshue: feedback from Al... not much more to add but ...

<Joshue> - in current draft HTML5

Joshue: I was hoping that there may be some news from the HTML WG side

<Joshue> - Wiki anthology of discussion

<Joshue> ** function and performance

Joshue: these comments I'm pasting in are from an e-mail message

<DanC> "on the wiki"? help?

Joshue: maybe I can (re)post this to the public-html list

http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

<Joshue> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders

Joshue: that gives a good overview of the issues

<DanC> hmm... it starts with "HTML 5 needs ..."; that seems to presume the conclusion.

Joshue: jgraham smart-headers algorithm is really good ...
... but still you need a layered approach ...
... still need the markup ...

<DanC> (joshue, you've lost me. if I'm representative at all, you've lost a lot of your audience)

Joshue: chained headers, nested headers ...

<DanC> (but maybe I'm way behind)

Joshue: we talk about the same thing, but in different ways ...
... they are currently not allowed ...

DanC: that page starts with, "HTML 5 needs a mechanism that enables..."
... that seems like [a statement of the solution, not a statement of the problem]

Joshue: maybe the problem needs to be more explicit
... I can work on that
... problem is that there is a deficiency in the markup on the HTML5 spec, that doesn't address this problem

DanC: I think [you need a better intro on the page that draws people in]

Joshue: allowing nested/chained headers seems like a great solution to me
... @scope is poorly supported in AT software

http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-9e7b78e86268dbd2771292df3f45bbe0472252bd

<DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-29de33199bf5222d55c4a52b8970245d24bd286f

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

<pimpbot> Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at esw.w3.org)

Joshue: I think the first solution "Allow headers to reference a td" is the best

<DanC> (now scanning the wiki page for arguments against #1 ...)

Joshue: that's it for now [on this topic]

DanC: who has the ball?
... I don't see the arguments against discussed on that Wiki page

<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment

DanC: re-reading now, this is looking a little bit familier

<DanC> (ok... arguments against #1 are under "Rationale: Why Headers Should Not be Included")

<DanC> (checking http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ ...)

<pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)

<DanC> ("headers" doesn't occur there)

<Philip> (DanC, the headers things are in "semantics-tables" there)

<DanC> semantics-tables

<Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables

http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables

<pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)

<pimpbot> Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org)

<DanC> so http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#semantics-tables should work; doesn't seem to. but ok

<DanC> ACTION: Hixie to follow up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie

<DanC> ACTION: ian to follow up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ian

<DanC> trackbot, status

decide on whether we're having a telecon next week

<DanC> ACTION: MikeSmith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-11-27].

<DanC> action-87 due 4 Dec 2008

<trackbot> ACTION-87 Ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages due date now 4 Dec 2008

<DanC> (pls update the due date with your best guess, MikeSmith )

<dsinger> yes, let's skip it

<ChrisWilson> resolved, no telecon next week.

<DanC> (is this an action from TPAC that didn't get into tracker?)

<Lachy> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ has limited documentation on how to check in and check out

<pimpbot> Title: W3C Public CVS Repository (at dev.w3.org)

<DanC> the docs are http://www.w3.org/Project/CVSdoc/

<Lachy> you need to generate an SSH2 key, and send in your public key

discuss ping

[Cynthia will follow up with DanC off-list about getting the doc into CVS]

<smedero> Roy, recently, on Ping: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Nov/0316.html

<pimpbot> Title: Re: An HTML language specification vs. a browser specification from Roy T. Fielding on 2008-11-20 (public-html@w3.org from November 2008) (at lists.w3.org)

<smedero> (he's complained about ping in the past on public-html...)

<DanC> issue-2?

<trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- Practicability of UI requirements for hyperlink auditing -- RAISED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/2

<pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-2 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

<smedero> (or, objected... I should say.)

DanC: [summarizing objections to @ping and Roy's objections in particulars]
... I don't yet understand the arguments against @ping
... seems like taking a hidden-in-script thing and making it into a declarative mechanism
... would like to have an eyes-open requirements discussion about this

<Julian> another argument against it is the way it's specified (as POST)

<Lachy> there's a lot of discussion about ping on the whatwg list from 2004/5

Julian: I think it would be helpful if the spec contained less of that stuff that clearly does not have a consensus yet in the WG
... and Roy was suggesting things of that class should first be put forward as separate documents

[adjourned]

<ChrisWilson> adjourned (will continue discussion next week)

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: DanC to propose to postpone ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status by explaining the problem, noting the lack of solutions, and asking if postponing is acceptable [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Hixie to follow up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: ian to follow up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: MikeSmith to ensure Ian Hickson follows up on semantics-tables messages [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2008/11/20 17:59:23 $

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WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: ChrisWilson Cynthia_Shelly DanC ISSUE Joshue Julian Lachy Lionheart Microsoft Mike MikeSmith P19 P30 Philip Sam Shawn_Medero Title aaaa action-78 action-81 adele adrianba cyns dsinger inserted pimpbot rubys scribenick smedero takkaria trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008OctDec/0007.html
Found Date: 20 Nov 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-html-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: danc hixie ian mikesmith

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