Backplane XG Teleconference -- 30 Sep 2008

<scribe> Scribe: Gregory

<scribe> ScribeNick: oedipus

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/23-backplane-minutes.html

<Charlie> cool...thanks!

no problem scribing -- i need to email you as i can't make it to TPAC due to medical situation, but still want to do what i can do make the demo accessible (or at least expose the platform through which it can be made accessible

<Charlie> ok, that would be great

<Charlie> jack can't be there either so i'm going to talk about the SMIL stuff for him

PFWG really wants to meet with RWAB

<Charlie> that's good

<Charlie> (some others aren't so keen)

did al send you his "topic list"?

<Charlie> not yet

will remind him...

<Charlie> he did mention that tuesday after lunch would be best time

<Charlie> k, thx

i'd like to pin PF down and get RWAB on the F2F schedule

<Charlie> k

<Charlie> is the pdf format stuff i sent ok for you to read?

<Charlie> i haven' t put into html yet

did you generate tagged PDF? (http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/accessibility/pdfs/acro7_pg_ue.pdf)

<Charlie> nope

<Charlie> will check that out

<Charlie> is that aria tagged?

no, native adobe tagging

<Charlie> oh, ok

trackbot, start telcon

scribe & participant's cheat sheet: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/CheatSheet

trackbot, start telcon rwab

trackbot users' guide: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

Beginnings, Announcements, Etc.

CW: web conference - www.webdialogs.com/join

<unl> no

<Charlie> meeting code 801862

CW: let's begin - anouncements, agenda adenda?

TPAC Presentation

CW: title not finalized
... viewed as XG talk on state-of-art -- gave panel discussion in 2006, want to update; may be too inward looking; XG process not relevant - focus on bigger challanges on building better web apps using W3C recs to do that
... opportunity to use W3C techs to perform demo
... goal is use of w3c standards

GJR: yes, that makes sense to me

JJ: makes sense to me, too

CW: modularity and abstraction in title - want to stress working together and working across working groups
... open RIA - positioning w3c frameworks to others; model comes down to abstraction, need final puch and are we catching themes we need to cover
... step back and broaden discussion -- threads from W3C standard to open libraries
... second page: have opportunity to pull techs together... couple of things to do: ..." -- focus on what we've done (alligning declarative and data models)
... place for JB to address M12n; streamlined syntax for XForms
... 2 categories of themes: modularity and abstraction (set of underlying concepts that provide bridges forward and backwards
... from XG PoV, how we are using these aspects to provide concrete examples
... data-oriented backplane (data as API) - SMIL example (can run live); simple VoiceXML (uses same data model); and ODF Dojo+XHTML (using data model to bridge tech)
... model-link coordination pattern from JJ's paper
... model view backplane: leveraging abstracts as wrapper around framework specific widgets (YUI calendar control) - how generic infrastructure can be bound to provide rich experience, and accessibility
... component-free APIs; modularity; simple examples; what will do when stuff comes together

JB: great overview
... data backplane - dojo and XHTML -- how you are doing something; in data backplane category because of what XG is doing now
... call ODF+XHTML through Dojo and put in MVC
... mixing 2 data collections: ODF and XHTML -- currently through data layer only; data level integration can be shown now - ODF and XForms can potentially share common model; promote down one level

CW: gladly add that -- patent issues?
... was ODF and XHTML - scrubbed because dojo surface control without triggering IPR concerns

JB: papers just finished addressed making a form and an ODF document work together through XForms model

CW: like to talk about that more offline

JB: both views shown to viewer at same time; current limitations in ODF led to one view at a time

CW: better example, but scrubbed due to IPR concerns
... ODF in broader community as namespace that makes sense for interactive documents

JJ: acronyms - start off with screen shots of vague application sketches of types of things we want to do - even if don't know what ARIA, dojo, or SMIL is, can still understand example

CW: what about flipping it around? start with examples?
... show stuff happening then examine internal structure; if want to motivate internal structure, maybe that first

JJ: demo will be good -- whet appetite up front with frame-of-reference: why combine all technologies in first place?

CW: bunch of diff techs coming into play - want to share info richly across them; then loop back and address issues that have arisen and what we are doing to address them

JJ: give the 300,000 foot overview - goals in slide from internal PoV - why do we want a framework needs to be explained

CW: here is internal diagram of page - will probably overwhelm; whet appetite first good strategy
... simplify stage: remove sub-bullets, or made multiple slides might help
... dig into each category - what is common infrastructure
... chart - placeholder? say something about forms modularization
... might be able to do in way that doesn't look like we are planning world domination

JB: have to think about that for a while

CW: discussion about modules
... can elaborate as want

GJR: modularization plans for XML Events

CW: markB's google maps example if not using in different presentation
... jack's example, loan form, dojo/xhtml example
... use data model to present other parts of page
... same loan form - calendar, abstract interaction control
... interface - control widgets controlling data binding and events lifecycle for events
... bridging pattern - different from native pattern
... accessibility segment

GJR: will work on that with whomever whenever

CW: go back to title page - 1) what type of apps building? (2) stuff using exists (3) relationship between XG and WGs - terminal report from XG to WG usual end product (4) building working examples to test in languages

Wordsmithing Presentation Title

CW: any ideas?
... how much detail on m12n and abstraction and accessibility

JJ: don't like RIA in title - had to look up with Google - should have been able to guess, i guess, but would spell it out (at very least) and tersify title
... XG Views on Rich Web Applications Backplane

CW: trying to say too much

JJ: need title that will (a) draw people and (b) keep them in room

JB: Open Standards for Rich Web Applications

CW: modularity point is missed more generally - something puchnier than m12n - challange audience to do better if communicate and share technology, but concrete work that needs to occur

JJ: "Eating Each Others' Dog Food"

JB: "How to Eat Dog Food and Like It, Too

CW: something punchy and catchy -
... common architecture; implementing common architecture; how to extend
... JB how much you want to say about m12n or abstraction?

JB: have 3 or 4 slides only
... pitch makes sense to me, but i know the 20 acronyms

CW: abstraction/streamlined syntax

JB: going to address in my slides; thomas working on making something demonstrable

CW: will have something running

JB: another example of making it work together - open module AND streamlined

CW: careful not to presume that everyone bought into everything
... another type of backplane - a bridging backplane

JB: adaptation on-ramp for full set of modules
... segues nicely into examples you have - separate models that can be adopted into many forms
... 3-fold way of problem xforms adoption problem: 1) declarative AJAX programming; 2) M12n; 3) abstraction/streamlining for bridging syntax; circle back to modeling layer - abstract layer just another model; as complexity arises, can start to pull in modules without having to worry about other modules and "rip-and-replace"

CW: tried to express in chart
... can turn to examples - start with streamline or conclude with it

JB: even if start with it to show "here is abstraction layer we got to work with attributes familiar upon which we layered semantics"
... circling discussion back that abstraction just another module that authors can adopt - segue into other examples which suppose have non-attribute modules - what cool things could you do with them? why use them? advantages, etc.

CW: good argument for starting with attributes model, then data model, then close-ups

GJR: m12n from XHTML2 - XML Events to be modularized to Event Module, Handler Module and Script Module
... as far as accessibility: rule number 1 is follow the rules and implement to standards - gain for accessiblity is a commmon framework and consistency of expectations
... start with what is built in, because assistive techs need assistance
... common document architectures to work off of - modularization model easier to support

CW: better places to attach

GJR: separting out what has native accessibility support and what doesn't and how it can be provided
... "if you build something from the inside out, you'll have no difficulty penetrating from the outside in"

Review of TPAC Meetings

CW: Al Gilman - tuesday after lunch slot with PF at TPAC
... moday at 4 with MMI - Voice example should trigger discussion - m12n, streamlining and ubiquity in general
... Dave Raggett and UbiWeb on wednesday
... HTML and Web Apps?

JB: had first meeting with Chris Wilson and meeting with him tomorrow
... WebApps group categorically refused to meet with us

GJR: PF should also talk with Forms WG about moving forward on forms in HTML5

JB: role emerging for web apps group is strategic, but currently disconnected; hoping that TPAC presentations will help sway some

CW: slot on Wednesday can address issues

JB: step 1: set of techs can deliver cross-browser using AJAX library; strategic play for WebApps to discuss APIs that can deliver this strategy and why they should care

CW: at TPAC 2006, WebApps jumped up to take lead on "next steps"
... discuss behavioral/functional PoV

JB: doing same thing as HTML5, but at javascript level - request APIs - what will be implemented in next 3 months for UA implementation; eating feed corn -- need to try and get roadmap or long-term goals

CW: will chat with JB about middle section; will chat with GJR on accessibility once delivers comments on demo

ADJOURNED

<scribe> ACTION: Gregory - review CW's proposed presentation and suggest accessibility additions/suggestions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-backplane-minutes.html#action01]

- DRAFT -

Backplane XG Teleconference

30 Sep 2008

Attendees

Contents

Beginnings, Announcements, Etc.

TPAC Presentation

Wordsmithing Presentation Title

Review of TPAC Meetings

Summary of Action Items

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