See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 21 August 2008
<anne> Apologies, I'm in a CSS WG meeting and forgot to e-mail.
<DanC> noted, anne
<anne> I'm available for questions though, as we're discussing font matching and I'm not really knowledgeable in that :)
<anne> (having said that, it's interesting)
<anne> I'm afraid the agenda was a) really late and b) no longer reflecting reality
<anne> (the CSS WG F2F agenda that is)
<shepazu> the SVG WG wants to HTML and SVG to align on an issue of focused elements when they are removed from the tree... could I bring this up here, or what?
<anne> DanC, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0133.html
<anne> DanC, so the last point of today does align with what we're discussing at this point, that's good :)
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<anne> DanC, though Friday item 1 has been discussed yesterday
<scribe> scribeNick: oedipus
<MikeSmith> shepazu: yeah, OK
<MikeSmith> (about your question)
<robburns> robburns
<robburns> yes, I'm on the phone listening
<smedero> If anyone needs help with the issue tracking system, you can ping me on IRC. I can't make the call though... I've got to deal with my relator via phone at this time.
DS: how to address focus issues
MS: issue is - focused elements
when removed from tree
... other agenda addenda?
DC: you Mike?
MS: goals for call - end early
no objections logged
JR: finished discussing how to procede with open issues in tracker - have nagging feeling not proceding
MS: talked about issue of making
HTML5 compliant with XSLT output = HTML
... give myself action on that
<MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-74 - Raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-08-28].
<Julian> thanks
MS: issues hixie said are making changes to spec - what to do next - which move ahead with in discussion leading to resolution
<DanC> (I thought we were using "pending review" for the ones where the editor had considered all arguments.)
MS: want to get feedback from
henriS - issue raised b/c no way to output HTML5 doctagged
document from XSLT output
... HenriS pointed out least of problems with HTML output from
XSLT engines; list of problems; having discussion about his
list of problems on list
JR: HenriS has good list but XSLT 1.0 doesn't have any problems writing average HTML docs except for doctypes - interesting for future of XSLT development, but distraction from core issue
<DanC> (I'm inclined to postpone ISSUE-54 html5-from-xslt , pending a new output mode for XSLT)
DanC: seems like core issue to me - what is issue then?
MS: very specifically about cannot generate doctype of HTML5 with public identifier
DanC: working group issue - changed to include things henri mentioned in request
<Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to say that the namespace thing is more core
MS: but julian said, a lot of other edge cases - doctype is low hanging fruit - one that is most important - could optionally put public/system identifier on HTML5 doctype - think would be ok, but want others' opinions
HS: new empty elements and namespaces; empty element issue - want to use event source, you can - those "edge cases" are what are new in HTML5 - if not using new features of HTML5, use HTML4
<shepazu> HTML5 is meant to replace HTML4, no?
<DanC> (hmm... isn't the HTML 5 spec intended to obsolete HTML 4? why should anybody bother with HTML 4? I guess I better double-check...)
<anne> (I don't think it does anything with HTML4 at all.)
HS: other problem - namespace - old HTML needs custom XSLT because in no namespace - would be endoresement of XSLT not capable of outputting HTML - not evolvable, so if add SVG or MathML later, have code base based on a hack without right namespace - tweaking to allow using old HTML output mode for HTML5 doctype gives false sense of security and encourages them to do wrong thing rather than creating tree for XSLT to output HMTL5
<anne> (It effectively obsoletes it as far as user agents are concerned though.)
MS: excellent points
<DanC> (olivier has got Henri's validator code glued into the w3c validation service code, and there's an interesting question of when to use which code; seems to me the html5 validator should be invoked on docs with the html4 doctype too, since that's how browsers treat them. I'm not sure.)
JR: 2 things: plenty of things in HTML5 one would want to try (new navigation elements), but no way to do except through hack; second agreee that drawback of XSLT HTML output mode but been copied for years - claiming critical now is a distraction; XHTML generating stylesheet so can mechanically write XSLT to output what you need; don't think these are reasons not to discuss main issue for which ticket opened
<Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to say "I think we should have a public identifier, because as I've said before having some version ID is good programming practice"
CW: having public identifier good practice anyway, would help here as well
<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to respond to hsivonen
<DanC> (public identifier when there's no corresponding public text? wft?)
MS: touches on versioning
CW: still have unresolved floating issue on versioning
<DanC> "This specification represents a new version of HTML4" -- http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#relationship . hm.
MS: henri's point - don't want to encourage users to rely on current output HTML too much; conceeding on this will lead users to expect we do more; what we can do to deal with no way to make current XSLT engines to recognize new empty elements, can't fix from HTML side; will need to be better HTML output method than what exist now - what to do in meantime; there are people (me included) who want to generate HTML5 compliant output from XSLT without resort to
<DanC> (there's not much urgency to this issue, is there? I'd rather read hsivonen's and julian's arguments in email. I suggest the chair quit arguing a position and get back to chairing ;-)
MS: if can address most of user
needs by adding optional public identifier to doctype, should
discuss - are there any negative side-effects
... one thing talked about with ARIA is not meant to be
permenant solution
<hsivonen> (I'm OK to taking this to email)
<DanC> (new empty elements... anybody got an example handy?)
JR: one last thing: if argument is that HTML5 introduces new empty elements, and producers asusme new elements/unknown elements are empty, should we be adding empty elements to HTML5 - XSLT made that assumption, other producers may have problems as well
<hsivonen> DanC, <eventsource>, <source>
MS: speaking personally, do not want to be constrained in developing ML by bad design decisions made in past
DanC: move along?
<Julian> ok, let's move to email
MS: no resolution except continue email discussion
<shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0171.html
MS: explanation of problem case?
<anne> hsivonen, DanC, + <command>
DS: no defined behavior in HTML
user agents, when element has focused and that element is
removed from tree what happens? is an onBlur onFocus event?
does it regain focus if comes back into tree? what if hidden
via CSS and CSS selectors
... email pointer to test case - add onBlur to onClick all HTML
UAs treat differently
... trying to resolve behavior in SVG and want to port to HTML5
- if element invisible via CSS or taken out of tree, should be
removed and throw an unfocused event
... want alignment between HTML5 and SVG
<MikeSmith> anne: comments on the above from shepazu ?
<hsivonen> I can only comment that I can't comment before seeing test cases run in 4 browsers
<anne> hsivonen, DanC, + <embed> (not really new)
DS: other question - is this right forum
DS = Doug Schepers
MS: can raise as issue if want
DS: yes
MS: please type in text for issue
<MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
MS: i will create it
<anne> MikeSmith, no, I'm not really sure I understand
<shepazu> Focus change event when elements are removed from the rendering tree
<anne> MikeSmith, user agents should probably be tested to get the answer
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/track/issues/258
DanC: is this urgent? couldn't be handled better by reading and commenting
DS: trying to resolve in timely manner - will send email to the list
<hsivonen> anne, the question is: if the element with focus is a) removed from DOM or b) becomes display:none, should blur event fire? where should focus go?
MS: best way to procede is testing according to anne and henri's IRC comments
<DanC> (ah... looks like hsivonen groks)
<anne> hsivonen, focus goes to <body> or the Document object iirc in case nothing else is focused
<anne> hsivonen, display:none shouldn't affect anything
<shepazu> note that HTML UAs all do something a little different
<anne> hsivonen, I don't think blur fires on removal, but I'm not sure
<shepazu> anne: why shouldn't it?
MS: overdue action item review
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda
<anne> shepazu, I'm not saying that
MS: one overdue on me
<DanC> action-34?
<trackbot> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-08-14 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
MS: lachy working on web dev guide - need status report - keep action open
<anne> shepazu, most of that is simply based on existing impl as there's likely content depending on it
MS: nothing new to say about action 54, though
CW: thread with PFWG pretty active
<DanC> action-54?
<trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-08-20 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
<Laura> We are still waiting for a reply from the PFWG for Action Item 54 regarding our March and April requests:
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Apr/0408.html
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0234.html
MS: can we close action?
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0024.html
<hsivonen> anne, shepazu said browsers aren't consistent here
<Laura> Action 54's Second Draft is dependent on PF's response. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54's
CW: want to keep and redeadline to next week; want date from PF as to when action will be "shipped"
<MikeSmith> action-54?
<trackbot> ACTION-54 -- Chris Wilson to ask PF WG to look at drafted text for HTML 5 spec to require producers/authors to include @alt on img elements -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/54
<Laura> I emailed Al for an update:
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Aug/0024.html
MS: moved week later
<Laura> Action 54's Second Draft is dependent on PF's response. Request for an Action Item 54 time extension until there is a response from the PFWG.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - 54's
<anne> hsivonen, ok
DanC: pre-empts yesterday's plan
<Laura> Karl's proposal:
<Laura> "All img elements must have the alt content attribute set. The accessibility requirements on the possible values of the alt attributes are defined by WCAG 2.0 and not HTML 5."
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0437.html
<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action54AltAttributeThirdDraft
<MikeSmith> action-66?
<trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Chris Wilson to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-20 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
MS: Chris, action 66?
CW: related - combine these 2 into one
<Laura> We have collated info on the Action 32. Deliverable is at:
<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/SummaryForTABLE
CW: believe feedback coming at same time
<Laura> Advice From PFWG:
<Laura> "1. @summary should stay. 2. It provides a needed service. 3. element content providing this info, *if linked by markup to the table* offers growth to even better practice. 4. Don't have the linking markup yet; is a developmental item. 5. evolution not revolution says: keep @summary at least until alternatives are deployed and stable."
<Laura> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0213.html
DanC: diff issues
Laura: different issues
<Laura> Request that @summary be reinstated in the spec. It is needed.
<Laura> Sample text from HTML 4:
<Laura> "summary = text [CS]
<Laura> This attribute provides a summary of the table's purpose and structure for user agents rendering to non-visual media such as speech and Braille.…Make the table summary available to the user. Authors should provide a summary of a table's content and structure so that people using non-visual user agents may better understand it..." Source:
<Laura> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#adef-summary
CW: actions on me are fine to combine
<DanC> action-66?
<trackbot> ACTION-66 -- Joshue O Connor to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
<Laura> @summary may seem irrelevant or redundant to those with good eyesight because they have access to content relationships at a glance. However, for users with visual impairments it is often vital for comprehension. It is often the difference between "seeing" or "not seeing" the table as a whole.
DanC: josh now on tracker team
MS: reassign 66 to josh
DanC: done
<MikeSmith> action-72?
<trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
MS: action 72 - due next week/this week (tomorrow)
DanC: 21st august today
<Laura> Deliverable for Action 72:
<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
Laura: deliverable for that ready
<Laura> Request that the definition of the headers attribute in the spec be extended to allow it to reference a td. This would make it possible for complex data tables to be marked up accessibly.
<Laura> The headers/id markup is functional and works today. Results of some recent testing:
<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
<Laura> It needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
<Laura> This issue's history from May 2007 to present:
<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders
Laura: request that be changed
DanC: has anyone notified public-html
Laura: no, but can
<Laura> The current wording for the headers attribute only allows the space separated token values to reference the id attribute of a header cell(th). It says:
<Laura> "The headers attribute, if specified, must contain a string consisting of an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens, each of which must have the value of an ID of a th element..."
<Laura> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#headers
DanC: action complete to my satisfaction
<Laura> This is currently implemented in such a way that complex tables cannot be created using the headers attribute. It essentially makes the headers attribute that has been included on tds pointless. The headers attribute needs to be able to reference the id of a td.
MS: going to close out then
Laura: not closed - rewrote, but how to get into spec
<robburns> Laura, good question
DanC: action to draft
Laura: need new action to get into text
<MikeSmith> issue-57?
<trackbot> ISSUE-57 -- @headers -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/57
DanC: yes, but first needs discussion
MS: close this one
<robburns> that is how do issues resolved through the WG process effect the draft?
Laura: need another action item to get into draft - survey?
MS: chairs will have discussion and make decision on how to put question to group
Laura: will you let us know that
outcome - want not just to discuss but have movement on
it
... already drafted
MS: should open discussion about @headers
<MikeSmith> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Action72Headers
MS: look at what josh has drafted
<Laura> The headers/id markup is functional and works today. Results of some recent testing:
<Laura> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/TableHeadersTestingBug5822
<Laura> It needs to be grandfathered into the spec.
Laura: table until next week when josh can be here
DanC: alright
MS: laura could you summarize
Laura: rather let josh to it next week
<DanC> action-72?
<trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
DanC: mark action pending review
MS; nothing there
<DanC> action-72?
<trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Joshue O Connor to rewrite spec to reinstate id/headers AND their functionality by specifically stating that headers are allowed to reference a td. Reword the current definition of the headers attribute so that each of the space separated tokens must have the value of the ID value of a th or td element. -- due 2008-08-21 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/72
<MikeSmith> issue-20?
<trackbot> ISSUE-20 -- Improvements to the table-headers algorithm in the HTML 5 spec -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/20
MS: Issue-20 - been pending review for a while - what are we waiting on?
DanC: isn't that connected to action 72?
<hsivonen> It's not at all clear, though, that action 72 is the best solution to issue 20
DanC: @headers and headers
element issues?
... 57 duplicates 20 - 20 is table headers thing josh drafted
on
MS: please annotate issue 57
then
... nothing in notes about closing out; hixie wrote in march
"change to spec"
<robburns> issue-20 deals with the standard table-headers algorithm without attributes, while issue-57 refers to defects in the current draft regarding the headers attribute
<hsivonen> robburns, well if the attributeless algorithm can be amended to deal with the relevant cases, the attribute wouldn't be needed
DanC: pending review means editor looked and thinks he has correct answer discussion done as far as he is concerned; now WG here to discuss if happy with editor's choice, josh wasn't satisfied, drafted new verbiage and now need to discuss what to do with it -
<hsivonen> robburns, so action 72 pre-supposes the solution
<DanC> robburns, by that explanation issue-57 is clearly not separate from issue-20; it's one design space
<MikeSmith> issue-32?
<trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Include a summary attribute for tables? -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/32
MS: issue-32
<DanC> we need to talk with Joshue about adding issues
MS: include @summary for table
<robburns> hsivoen, true but that's hope has nothing to do with whether issue-57 should be in the tracker
MS: pretty well covered by action 66
<MikeSmith> issue-55?
<trackbot> ISSUE-55 -- head/@profile missing, but used in other specifications/formats -- RAISED
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55
MS: last issue 55 no @profile on
HEAD
... JR opened up - discussed on list, but bit detatched
DanC: suggest you put the question on that one
MS: concrete proposal and vote to leave in or out - henri, thoughts?
<DanC> (I'm not happy with leaving it out, but I don't have any new information... I don't expect to convince anybody I haven't already convinced)
HS: use cases for @profile would be better solved by looking at microformats work; having profile means consumer specifically programmed not to understand content unless fits profile; consumers better off if always try to understand the content
MS: understanding content would mean doing some analysis of content of page - parsing the content of the page to determine through algorithm what class of content it is, right?
HS: unlikely to ocurr likely - unambiguous
<Zakim> Julian, you wanted to say it's a disambiguation mech
JR: one can argue that combination of class names not likely to occur without intents documented - for those who don't want to use, harmless, for those who want it, should have it - why removed?
<DanC> (re zero cost to implementors and small cost to keep in the spec, I agree; I made that point in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0571.html )
MS: hixie's position is as single attribute is harmless, but the design philosophy/principles or what hixie has said feature should not go into HTML5 without clear use cases for it in sufficient critical mass not to include
<hsivonen> harmless stuff takes people's time if promoted
MS: accumulation of "harmless" stuff that clutters the ML and makes unweildy - that is reasoning behind it
<DanC> (darn; hixie's summary msg isn't cited from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/55 )
MS: another straw on the camel's
back
... continue discussion on list
DanC: haven't heard any arguements today haven't heard before - put the question
MS: yes means "keep current state of no @profile"
DanC: cite hixie's summary - might have only gone to whatwg list
<DanC> (this is a msg from hixie in the relevant thread... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008May/0102.html )
<MikeSmith> ACTION: Mike to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-08-28].
MS: end of agenda
<Julian> publication?
MS: rather not talk about publication on call today - amount of time
DanC: i'm not going
anywhere
... ask in email
MS: summary - have obligation to
comply with heartbeat req
... obligation to keep public and w3c membership informed -
should be publishing PWD at regular intervals
... published last in June - every 3 months would be publishing
in September, but i think we should be publishing now in
august
<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/0412.html "It's past mid-August, should we publish?"
MS: hixie sent message asking about publication plans
<DanC> October target for HTML5 WD with HTML forms integration
<anne> (we might collide with some IE release again, but I guess that's ok)
MS: issue that precludes agreement - need to resolve that before we can publish - need agreement from powers-that-be to ok publication under conditions, hasn't yet been negotiated
<DanC> I think a Sep ETA is fine; it's <= 10 June 2008 + 3 months
MS: issue within teams trying to resolve - not free to discuss today
DanC: set new ETA for September
MS: specific date?
<anne> DanC, the idea was to measure from the FPWD
<DanC> I'm not sure where that idea came from
DanC: 10 September 2008 - three months after 10 june
MS: any comments about setting 10 september as goal?
<gsnedders> DanC: MikeSmith, IIRC
MS: sounds good to me
... to reiterate, should try to publish as often as possible so
public knows what we are doing;
... other comments?
MS: Chris can you chair next week?
CW: yes
MS: will have meeting next week;
Chris will send out agenda
... move to adjourn
ADJOURNED
<Julian> bye
<MikeSmith> oedipus: thanks extremely much for scribing
no problem
<MikeSmith> oedipus: yep, please push them out
<MikeSmith> oedipus: I think218 is Laura
MikeSmith: shall do
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/SVG in HTML5/focus issues/ Succeeded: s/six/three/ Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita Found ScribeNick: oedipus Default Present: Mike, Julian, Gregory_Rosmaita, DanC, robburns, shepazu, +1.218.349.aabb, Laura, ChrisWilson, hsivonen Present: ChrisWilson DanC Gregory_Rosmaita Julian Laura Mike hsivonen robburns shepazu Regrets: Joshue Agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda Found Date: 21 Aug 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-html-wg-minutes.html People with action items: michael mike tm WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]