<George> Zaki, ??P26 is me

<Bert> I gave the link to the new harness to the Math WG as well. It may still miss one or two features for them.

<scribe> ScribeNick: fantasai

Peter: Jason wants to do update on logo contest, anyone else for new topics?
... Melinda's here, so let's get her item done

Melinda's CSS2.1 Issue

<melinda> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0141.html

<plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0265.html

Elika: those seem to be 2 completely separate issues

<melinda> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008AprJun/0303.html

Melinda: I'm looking at things from testing perspective, and this section raises some questions

(2.3)

Melinda: Looks to me the whole section should be labelled informative
... given that it's one possible model
... I thas several problems
... It says parsing is out-of-scope
... I don't think parsing is out of scope
... It also says any discernable output is out of scope
... so I would conclude that discernable output is not something we can test in the test suite
... but formatting structure is in scope -- how would be test that?

Melinda proposes:

1. Label the section as "Informative".

2. Remove the verbiage at the end of the section regarding what's in and out of scope.

If the group feels that the scoping information is valuable and should be retained, then I would suggest:

1. Change "Step 1" to "The generation of a document tree"

2. Change the second line:

- Steps 2-5 are addressed by the bulk of this specification.

+ Parsing the source document, Steps 2-4 and Step 6 are addressed by the bulk of this specification.

3. Change the third line: s/6/5/.

Bert: I think there's a misunderstanding on step one
... Step 1 is about parsing the document, not parsing the style sheet

Melinda: I don't see that in there

Bert: It's talking about the source document

David: The spec is very careful to never refer to the style sheet as the document
... The document is always the document the style sheet is applying to

Bert: Otherwise, I think it can be explained why step 6 is out of scope
... I don't mind how you interpret it, if you make it informative
... it is effectively informative anyway

No one objects to making this section informative

Bert: for 6, what it's saying is that how the page gets rendered -- whether by api calls to graphics system, emitting PDF, etc, -- that is out of scope
... Changes are, make section informative
... and remove last three sentences

Elika: might need to be careful not to make 2.3.1 informative

<scribe> ACTION: Elika file an issue about this [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/09-css-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - File an issue about this [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-07-16].

RESOLUTION: Proposal accepted

Media Queries

Peter: There were some comments on the comments last week

Anne: I haven't gone through them yet

Elika: anything to discuss, or wait until Anne processes feedback

Anne will be on vacation for three weeks starting next thursday, probably won't get it done before then

Anne: Main thing was feedback from dbaron
... I'm not really sure how to deal with it

David: my concern about the error-handling thing is that we have that error-handling interoperably implemented
... you're proposing making a significant change I'm not sure is better

Anne: It's a change from implementations, not from previous draft

David: We're discussing what happens if you have a syntax error inside an expression
... anything you don't recognize inside a parenthesized expression

Elika: I think the media query should be dropped.
... I don't mind treating unknown media types as false, but I think invalid syntax and media queries should be ignored

David: So, if we say that if an expression has something unknown inside it then it's false
... Then either the query or the negation of the query needs to be true
... the currently-implemented behavior was tested in Acid 3

Anne: It still doesn't make sense.
... The old draft said always false
... Always false doesn't become true when negated

Anne quotes from the spec

David: I guess I'm ok with it as it is then

Anne: I don't really want that the serialized form to contain invalid values

David: You need to talk to hixie about getting Acid 3 changed

Anne: I believe Acid 3 will be changed for some SVG feature anyway
... Implementors are probably ok, since from what I heard it's easy either way

Peter: I think the important thing here is to make sure the behavior is best for forwards-compatibility

Discussion of treatment of unknown media types

David doesn't want to get into the 'aural' vs 'speech' mess

RESOLUTION: Unknown media *types* are treated as false: when negated become true.

RESOLUTION: Otherwise, invalid media queries are dropped.

Steve: The applies clause had groups named, and I don't know where those are defined.

Anne: They're in CSS2.1 in the Media Types section.
... 7.3.1 introduces Media Groups

Melinda: That section is informative. Does that still work?

Elika: That line in the property definitions is informative, too

Marquee Module

Elika: I still need to review in detail the definitions and how they relate to writing-mode.

Anne: I'd like to see the relation of marquee and overflow-x and overflow-y addressed.
... I've said this several times before, I don't know why Bert keeps avoiding the issue.
... overflow-x and overflow-y are already implemented
... It would be better to address this interaction in the spec than leaving it to implementations to figure out.

Bert: Can we set a deadline for review of Marquee when we decide to publish it?

Anne: I'm fine with publishing as a working draft, but not with leaving out overflow-x overflow-y

Bert: I'm fine to write a draft with that in it for you, but I don't want Marquee to depend on that

Anne: But the draft should address their interaction
... There are several implementations that support <marquee> and overflow-x and overflow-y

<anne> (I believe Opera actually implements the -wap-marquee stuff too, but I haven't tested it.)

Molly: IIRC there were some i18n issues about those

<anne> And with several above I mean, Internet Explorer, Opera, Firefox, and Safari

Molly: from TPAC F2F

Elika: Are overflow-x and overflow-y absolute or relative?

Anne: I think Markus said they were absolute

Peter: So, what I'm hearing is that Anne wants the interaction of overflow-x and overflow-y and marquee defined
... And Bert is concerned that adding overflow-x and overflow-y will slow down the module

Anne: I don't care where overflow-x and overflow-y are defined, but I want the marquee spec to say /if/ overflow-x and overflow-y are supported, this is how they interact with marquee

Elika: You could put it in and mark overflow-x and overflow-y at risk.
... Then at least the interaction would be defined. And it won't hold back the module because if it's a problem we can drop it

Bert: Marquee basically replaces a scrollbar
... If there is a scrollbar, then overflow-style can make it a marquee
... If there is no scrollbar, it has no effect

Bert explains how marquee works

F2F minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007OctDec/0267.html

David: I'm not seeing what you just said in the spec
... It needs to say when you get marquee, for which values of overflow and overflow-style
... If the answer is, you get a marquee when a scrolling mechanism is present, then you need to say that.
... Then give an example using different values of overflow.

Anne: What does it mean if there is no overflow, but overflow: scroll is specified?
... would you get a marquee?
... that's probably what you want

Peter: How much time to people need to review?

Anne: Can the draft be moved to public CVS?

Peter: Ok, one week.

Logo Contest

Jason: I've got the creative brief done.
... I wanted to launch it in conjunction for the site launch
... Leave a space for the logo, e.g. dotted line "logo goes here"
... Been talking about site, planning to have a soft launch end of July
... Hard launch around F2F in August

SteveZ: Did you talk to Ian Jacobs at all?

Steve: There's also a redesign of the W3C site going on

Jason: ok, I'll talk to him

Molly: I like the idea, building bridges to community

Melinda: How are we going to choose the logo?

Jason: I've got some rules written up, I'll get those out
... Basically the idea is that we'd vet entries for anything that was obviously inappropriate
... We'd open it up to voting here at AOL, allow the public to choose the logo that they desire

Elika: weren't we going to have the public narrow it down to five, and then some group picks?

some discussion about different ways to pick

<Bert> Ian Jacobs

Agreement that logos public votes on should be everything except ones we cannot use, not some artificially restricted set

Steve, Molly: Need to talk with Ian Jacobs about this

Elika: need to present winner to W3C to see if it's acceptable -- maybe it violates some trademark
... then we pick 2nd' place
... much easier to analyze one logo than a hundred

Meeting closed

<Bert> jason_cranfordtea, fantasai, shall we set aside some specific days for working on the site?

heh

Bert: we will need to do that in preparation for the site's hard launch
... I think the easiest way forward is to gradually prep the site contents by moving over to the template system
... under the current design
... and then when the Jason's design is ready, we just change the templates
... so you and I can maybe spend an hour or two discussing the template system and all your other scripts and how they fit together
... I already have an SSI template system set up on my server that works quite well
... I am not sure about how to handle the translations, though

<Bert> I'd like to try and replace SSI by our "SBP" (Script-Based Publishing), so files are expanded on CVS checkin, rather than on HTTP GET.

<Bert> SSI works, but our servers aren't that big, compared to the load they get.

<Bert> But yes, it shoul dbe possible to change the structure and the style independently from each other.

We'll want to be able to do that [sent]

What is SBP?

is it a template system?

or does it just hook up scripts?

If it just hooks up scripts, then I want to hook it up to Perl's Template Toolkit

rather than inventing a template system

<Bert> It is a database of associations between files and scripts: when a new version of the file is checked in, the script is executed.

<Bert> It can execute anything, in principle. I have it hooked to Makefiles, e.g..

ok

this is going to be a mess, then

we'll have to have source and output files littered all over the CVS tree :(

<Bert> I also use cron instead of SBP for some cases. Sometimes there isn't a clear trigger and then cron works better.

<Bert> A mess: yes, we have to try and not invent too much new. The best system would be one that is both already used at W3C and well-known elsewhere...

<Bert> SSI is a very old system, so that's good.

Right, and it's adequate for what we want to do

you're saying we can't use it

right?

So we need something different

<Bert> I can't get a definite answer from our systems people.

<Bert> We can use it, but nobody is able to predict what impact it will have.

<Bert> By far the most problematic traffic is for DTDs and schemas, put the CSS pages are fairly popular, too.

<Bert> The Core Styles are very popular and they have been using SSI for ten years or so, and the server hasn't melted.

Ok, well

<Bert> OK, nothing depends on the client, so it will be possible to optimize away SSI if necessary.

ok

so, would it work to try replacing /Style/CSS/Test/ with templatized pages?

using SSI?

<Bert> Not right now, but I'll ask the systeam to enable SSI for that directory.

ok

anything else I'd need to consider?

<Bert> Not based on what you sent me.

k

I'll wait for that request to go through and then give it a try tomorrow or the day after :)

<Bert> Fantasai, still there?

<Bert> Never mind. Sent e-mail.

got it

thanks: )

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Found ScribeNick: fantasai
Inferring Scribes: fantasai
Default Present: plinss, Molly_Holzschlag, fantasai, Bert, Melinda_Grant, Arron, George, David_Baron, Ming, +1.408.981.aabb, sylvaing, jason_cranfordtea, anne, SteveZ, howcome
Present: plinss Molly_Holzschlag fantasai Bert Melinda_Grant Arron George David_Baron Ming +1.408.981.aabb sylvaing jason_cranfordtea anne SteveZ howcome

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Got date from IRC log name: 09 Jul 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/07/09-css-minutes.html
People with action items: elika

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