IRC log of css on 2008-07-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:38 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #css
15:56:38 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/09-css-irc
15:56:52 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #css
15:57:11 [plinss]: zakim, this will be style
15:57:11 [Zakim]: ok, plinss, I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM already started
15:57:58 [Zakim]: + +aaaa
15:59:00 [plinss]: zakim, +aaaa is fantasai
15:59:00 [Zakim]: +fantasai; got it
16:00:03 [Zakim]: +Bert
16:00:31 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
16:00:58 [melinda]: melinda has joined #CSS
16:01:12 [plinss]: zakim, +[Microsoft] is Arron
16:01:12 [Zakim]: sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '+[Microsoft]'
16:01:32 [Ming]: Ming has joined #css
16:01:39 [Zakim]: +Melinda_Grant
16:01:42 [plinss]: zakim, [Microsoft] is Arron
16:01:42 [Zakim]: +Arron; got it
16:01:50 [Zakim]: +??P26
16:02:00 [George]: George has joined #css
16:02:22 [dbaron]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:02:37 [dbaron]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:37 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, Molly_Holzschlag, fantasai, Bert, Arron, Melinda_Grant, ??P26
16:02:56 [George]: Zaki, ??P26 is me
16:02:57 [Bert]: I gave the link to the new harness to the Math WG as well. It may still miss one or two features for them.
16:03:11 [George]: Zakim, ??P26 is me
16:03:13 [Zakim]: +George; got it
16:03:21 [Zakim]: +David_Baron
16:03:51 [Zakim]: +Ming
16:05:59 [Zakim]: +??P29
16:06:01 [sylvaing]: sylvaing has joined #css
16:06:34 [Zakim]: + +1.408.981.aabb
16:06:45 [jason_cranfordtea]: jason_cranfordtea has joined #css
16:07:21 [plinss]: zakim, ??P29 is sylvaing
16:07:21 [Zakim]: +sylvaing; got it
16:07:34 [Zakim]: +jason_cranfordtea
16:08:25 [anne]: Zakim, passcode?
16:08:25 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), anne
16:08:29 [fantasai]: ScribeNick: fantasai
16:08:41 [Zakim]: +??P33
16:08:44 [anne]: Zakim, ?? is me
16:08:44 [Zakim]: +anne; got it
16:08:55 [fantasai]: Peter: Jason wants to do update on logo contest, anyone else for new topics?
16:09:13 [fantasai]: Peter: Melinda's here, so let's get her item done
16:09:21 [fantasai]: Topic: Melinda's CSS2.1 Issue
16:09:37 [melinda]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Jul/0141.html
16:09:37 [plinss]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0265.html
16:10:14 [Zakim]: +??P34
16:10:18 [fantasai]: Elika: those seem to be 2 completely separate issues
16:10:38 [melinda]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008AprJun/0303.html
16:11:33 [fantasai]: Melinda: I'm looking at things from testing perspective, and this section raises some questions
16:11:36 [fantasai]: (2.3)
16:11:45 [fantasai]: Melinda: Looks to me the whole section should be labelled informative
16:11:51 [fantasai]: Melinda: given that it's one possible model
16:11:55 [fantasai]: Melinda: I thas several problems
16:12:00 [fantasai]: Melinda: It says parsing is out-of-scope
16:12:08 [fantasai]: Melinda: I don't think parsing is out of scope
16:12:20 [fantasai]: Melinda: It also says any discernable output is out of scope
16:12:38 [fantasai]: Melinda: so I would conclude that discernable output is not something we can test in the test suite
16:12:54 [fantasai]: Melinda: but formatting structure is in scope -- how would be test that?
16:13:08 [fantasai]: Melinda proposes:
16:13:14 [fantasai]: 1. Label the section as "Informative".
16:13:14 [fantasai]: 2. Remove the verbiage at the end of the section regarding what's in and out of scope.
16:13:17 [fantasai]: If the group feels that the scoping information is valuable and should be retained, then I would suggest:
16:13:20 [fantasai]: 1. Change "Step 1" to "The generation of a document tree"
16:13:22 [fantasai]: 2. Change the second line:
16:13:25 [fantasai]: - Steps 2-5 are addressed by the bulk of this specification.
16:13:27 [fantasai]: + Parsing the source document, Steps 2-4 and Step 6 are addressed by the bulk of this specification.
16:13:30 [fantasai]: 3. Change the third line: s/6/5/.
16:13:51 [fantasai]: Bert: I think there's a misunderstanding on step one
16:14:00 [fantasai]: Bert: Step 1 is about parsing the document, not parsing the style sheet
16:14:09 [fantasai]: Melinda: I don't see that in there
16:14:15 [fantasai]: Bert: It's talking about the source document
16:14:28 [fantasai]: David: The spec is very careful to never refer to the style sheet as the document
16:14:37 [fantasai]: David: The document is always the document the style sheet is applying to
16:14:56 [fantasai]: Bert: Otherwise, I think it can be explained why step 6 is out of scope
16:15:07 [fantasai]: Bert: I don't mind how you interpret it, if you make it informative
16:15:18 [fantasai]: Bert: it is effectively informative anyway
16:16:36 [fantasai]: No one objects to making this section informative
16:17:29 [fantasai]: Bert: for 6, what it's saying is that how the page gets rendered -- whether by api calls to graphics system, emitting PDF, etc, -- that is out of scope
16:17:49 [fantasai]: Bert: Changes are, make section informative
16:18:04 [fantasai]: Bert: and remove last three sentences
16:18:23 [fantasai]: Elika: might need to be careful not to make 2.3.1 informative
16:18:37 [fantasai]: ACTION: Elika file an issue about this
16:18:37 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-77 - File an issue about this [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-07-16].
16:18:52 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Proposal accepted
16:19:08 [fantasai]: Topic: Media Queries
16:19:26 [fantasai]: Zakim, who is noisy?
16:19:36 [Zakim]: fantasai, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: plinss (49%), Bert (9%), Melinda_Grant (36%), anne (8%)
16:19:51 [fantasai]: Peter: There were some comments on the comments last week
16:19:57 [fantasai]: Anne: I haven't gone through them yet
16:20:27 [fantasai]: Elika: anything to discuss, or wait until Anne processes feedback
16:20:53 [fantasai]: Anne will be on vacation for three weeks starting next thursday, probably won't get it done before then
16:21:01 [fantasai]: Anne: Main thing was feedback from dbaron
16:21:09 [fantasai]: Anne: I'm not really sure how to deal with it
16:21:34 [fantasai]: David: my concern about the error-handling thing is that we have that error-handling interoperably implemented
16:21:45 [fantasai]: David: you're proposing making a significant change I'm not sure is better
16:21:55 [fantasai]: Anne: It's a change from implementations, not from previous draft
16:22:08 [fantasai]: David: We're discussing what happens if you have a syntax error inside an expression
16:22:24 [fantasai]: David: anything you don't recognize inside a parenthesized expression
16:22:57 [fantasai]: Elika: I think the media query should be dropped.
16:23:32 [fantasai]: Elika: I don't mind treating unknown media types as false, but I think invalid syntax and media queries should be ignored
16:23:49 [fantasai]: David: So, if we say that if an expression has something unknown inside it then it's false
16:24:07 [fantasai]: David: Then either the query or the negation of the query needs to be true
16:25:23 [fantasai]: David: the currently-implemented behavior was tested in Acid 3
16:25:32 [fantasai]: Anne: It still doesn't make sense.
16:25:38 [fantasai]: Anne: The old draft said always false
16:25:46 [fantasai]: Anne: Always false doesn't become true when negated
16:26:11 [fantasai]: Anne quotes from the spec
16:26:31 [fantasai]: David: I guess I'm ok with it as it is then
16:27:09 [fantasai]: Anne: I don't really want that the serialized form to contain invalid values
16:27:36 [fantasai]: David: You need to talk to hixie about getting Acid 3 changed
16:28:17 [fantasai]: Anne: I believe Acid 3 will be changed for some SVG feature anyway
16:28:26 [fantasai]: Anne: Implementors are probably ok, since from what I heard it's easy either way
16:28:52 [fantasai]: Peter: I think the important thing here is to make sure the behavior is best for forwards-compatibility
16:31:56 [fantasai]: Discussion of treatment of unknown media types
16:32:18 [fantasai]: David doesn't want to get into the 'aural' vs 'speech' mess
16:32:39 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Unknown media *types* are treated as false: when negated become true.
16:33:02 [fantasai]: RESOLVED: Otherwise, invalid media queries are dropped.
16:33:47 [fantasai]: Steve: The applies clause had groups named, and I don't know where those are defined.
16:33:57 [fantasai]: Anne: They're in CSS2.1 in the Media Types section.
16:34:23 [fantasai]: Anne: 7.3.1 introduces Media Groups
16:34:57 [fantasai]: Melinda: That section is informative. Does that still work?
16:35:11 [fantasai]: Elika: That line in the property definitions is informative, too
16:35:38 [fantasai]: Topic: Marquee Module
16:35:58 [fantasai]: Elika: I still need to review in detail the definitions and how they relate to writing-mode.
16:36:15 [fantasai]: Anne: I'd like to see the relation of marquee and overflow-x and overflow-y addressed.
16:36:25 [fantasai]: Anne: I've said this several times before, I don't know why Bert keeps avoiding the issue.
16:36:33 [fantasai]: Anne: overflow-x and overflow-y are already implemented
16:36:37 [Zakim]: -??P34
16:36:47 [fantasai]: Anne: It would be better to address this interaction in the spec than leaving it to implementations to figure out.
16:36:47 [anne]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:36:47 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, Molly_Holzschlag, fantasai, Bert, Arron, Melinda_Grant, George, David_Baron, Ming, sylvaing, +1.408.981.aabb, jason_cranfordtea, anne
16:37:41 [Zakim]: +??P20
16:37:50 [fantasai]: Zakim, 1.408 is Steve
16:37:50 [Zakim]: sorry, fantasai, I do not recognize a party named '1.408'
16:38:01 [fantasai]: Zakim, +1.408.981 is SteveZ
16:38:01 [Zakim]: +SteveZ; got it
16:38:03 [anne]: Zakim, ??P is howcome
16:38:03 [Zakim]: +howcome; got it
16:38:12 [anne]: Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:38:12 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss, Molly_Holzschlag, fantasai, Bert, Arron, Melinda_Grant, George, David_Baron, Ming, sylvaing, SteveZ, jason_cranfordtea, anne, howcome
16:38:54 [fantasai]: Bert: Can we set a deadline for review of Marquee when we decide to publish it?
16:39:18 [fantasai]: Anne: I'm fine with publishing as a working draft, but not with leaving out overflow-x overflow-y
16:39:36 [fantasai]: Bert: I'm fine to write a draft with that in it for you, but I don't want Marquee to depend on that
16:40:03 [fantasai]: Anne: But the draft should address their interaction
16:40:19 [fantasai]: Anne: There are several implementations that support <marquee> and overflow-x and overflow-y
16:40:31 [anne]: (I believe Opera actually implements the -wap-marquee stuff too, but I haven't tested it.)
16:41:00 [fantasai]: Molly: IIRC there were some i18n issues about those
16:41:06 [anne]: And with several above I mean, Internet Explorer, Opera, Firefox, and Safari
16:41:25 [fantasai]: Molly: from TPAC F2F
16:41:57 [fantasai]: Elika: Are overflow-x and overflow-y absolute or relative?
16:42:03 [fantasai]: Anne: I think Markus said they were absolute
16:43:17 [fantasai]: Peter: So, what I'm hearing is that Anne wants the interaction of overflow-x and overflow-y and marquee defined
16:44:03 [fantasai]: Peter: And Bert is concerned that adding overflow-x and overflow-y will slow down the module
16:44:39 [fantasai]: Anne: I don't care where overflow-x and overflow-y are defined, but I want the marquee spec to say /if/ overflow-x and overflow-y are supported, this is how they interact with marquee
16:44:53 [fantasai]: Elika: You could put it in and mark overflow-x and overflow-y at risk.
16:45:12 [fantasai]: Elika: Then at least the interaction would be defined. And it won't hold back the module because if it's a problem we can drop it
16:45:59 [fantasai]: Bert: Marquee basically replaces a scrollbar
16:47:08 [fantasai]: Bert: If there is a scrollbar, then overflow-style can make it a marquee
16:47:15 [fantasai]: Bert: If there is no scrollbar, it has no effect
16:47:46 [fantasai]: Bert explains how marquee works
16:48:04 [fantasai]: F2F minutes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007OctDec/0267.html
16:48:13 [fantasai]: David: I'm not seeing what you just said in the spec
16:48:28 [fantasai]: David: It needs to say when you get marquee, for which values of overflow and overflow-style
16:49:47 [fantasai]: David: If the answer is, you get a marquee when a scrolling mechanism is present, then you need to say that.
16:50:01 [fantasai]: David: Then give an example using different values of overflow.
16:50:47 [fantasai]: Anne: What does it mean if there is no overflow, but overflow: scroll is specified?
16:50:59 [fantasai]: Anne: would you get a marquee?
16:51:13 [fantasai]: Anne: that's probably what you want
16:52:27 [fantasai]: Peter: How much time to people need to review?
16:52:34 [fantasai]: Anne: Can the draft be moved to public CVS?
16:54:16 [fantasai]: Peter: Ok, one week.
16:54:31 [fantasai]: Topic: Logo Contest
16:54:37 [fantasai]: Jason: I've got the creative brief done.
16:54:47 [fantasai]: Jason: I wanted to launch it in conjunction for the site launch
16:54:48 [Zakim]: -David_Baron
16:55:00 [fantasai]: Jason: Leave a space for the logo, e.g. dotted line "logo goes here"
16:55:17 [fantasai]: Jason: Been talking about site, planning to have a soft launch end of July
16:55:21 [Zakim]: -anne
16:55:27 [fantasai]: Jason: Hard launch around F2F in August
16:55:50 [fantasai]: SteveZ: Did you talk to Ian Jacobs at all?
16:56:02 [fantasai]: Steve: There's also a redesign of the W3C site going on
16:56:07 [fantasai]: Jason: ok, I'll talk to him
16:56:32 [fantasai]: Molly: I like the idea, building bridges to community
16:57:25 [fantasai]: Melinda: How are we going to choose the logo?
16:57:35 [fantasai]: Jason: I've got some rules written up, I'll get those out
16:58:10 [fantasai]: Jason: Basically the idea is that we'd vet entries for anything that was obviously inappropriate
16:58:26 [fantasai]: Jason: We'd open it up to voting here at AOL, allow the public to choose the logo that they desire
16:59:34 [fantasai]: Elika: weren't we going to have the public narrow it down to five, and then some group picks?
17:02:13 [fantasai]: some discussion about different ways to pick
17:03:18 [Bert]: Ian Jacobs
17:03:23 [fantasai]: Agreement that logos public votes on should be everything except ones we cannot use, not some artificially restricted set
17:03:48 [fantasai]: Steve, Molly: Need to talk with Ian Jacobs about this
17:05:16 [Zakim]: -Arron
17:06:07 [fantasai]: Elika: need to present winner to W3C to see if it's acceptable -- maybe it violates some trademark
17:06:16 [fantasai]: Elika: then we pick 2nd' place
17:06:24 [Zakim]: -sylvaing
17:06:25 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
17:06:25 [Zakim]: -howcome
17:06:27 [Zakim]: -Ming
17:06:29 [Zakim]: -plinss
17:06:30 [fantasai]: Elika: much easier to analyze one logo than a hundred
17:06:31 [Zakim]: -George
17:06:31 [Zakim]: -Molly_Holzschlag
17:06:34 [Zakim]: -Bert
17:06:34 [fantasai]: Meeting closed
17:06:34 [Molly]: Molly has left #css
17:06:35 [Zakim]: -jason_cranfordtea
17:06:43 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:07:07 [Zakim]: -Melinda_Grant
17:07:09 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:07:10 [Zakim]: Attendees were plinss, Molly_Holzschlag, fantasai, Bert, Melinda_Grant, Arron, George, David_Baron, Ming, +1.408.981.aabb, sylvaing, jason_cranfordtea, anne, SteveZ, howcome
17:09:50 [Bert]: jason_cranfordtea, fantasai, shall we set aside some specific days for working on the site?
17:10:01 [jason_cranfordtea]: jason_cranfordtea has left #css
17:10:05 [fantasai]: heh
17:10:27 [fantasai]: Bert: we will need to do that in preparation for the site's hard launch
17:10:55 [fantasai]: Bert: I think the easiest way forward is to gradually prep the site contents by moving over to the template system
17:11:00 [fantasai]: Bert: under the current design
17:11:12 [fantasai]: Bert: and then when the Jason's design is ready, we just change the templates
17:12:00 [fantasai]: Bert: so you and I can maybe spend an hour or two discussing the template system and all your other scripts and how they fit together
17:12:56 [fantasai]: Bert: I already have an SSI template system set up on my server that works quite well
17:13:06 [fantasai]: Bert: I am not sure about how to handle the translations, though
17:13:11 [Bert]: I'd like to try and replace SSI by our "SBP" (Script-Based Publishing), so files are expanded on CVS checkin, rather than on HTTP GET.
17:13:47 [Bert]: SSI works, but our servers aren't that big, compared to the load they get.
17:15:40 [Bert]: But yes, it shoul dbe possible to change the structure and the style independently from each other.
17:16:22 [fantasai]: We'll want to be able to do that [sent]
17:16:51 [fantasai]: What is SBP?
17:16:55 [fantasai]: is it a template system?
17:17:01 [fantasai]: or does it just hook up scripts?
17:17:14 [fantasai]: If it just hooks up scripts, then I want to hook it up to Perl's Template Toolkit
17:17:24 [fantasai]: rather than inventing a template system
17:18:03 [Bert]: It is a database of associations between files and scripts: when a new version of the file is checked in, the script is executed.
17:18:37 [Bert]: It can execute anything, in principle. I have it hooked to Makefiles, e.g..
17:19:10 [fantasai]: ok
17:19:13 [fantasai]: this is going to be a mess, then
17:19:25 [fantasai]: we'll have to have source and output files littered all over the CVS tree :(
17:19:31 [Bert]: I also use cron instead of SBP for some cases. Sometimes there isn't a clear trigger and then cron works better.
17:23:32 [Bert]: A mess: yes, we have to try and not invent too much new. The best system would be one that is both already used at W3C and well-known elsewhere...
17:24:07 [Bert]: SSI is a very old system, so that's good.
17:24:29 [fantasai]: Right, and it's adequate for what we want to do
17:24:32 [fantasai]: you're saying we can't use it
17:24:33 [fantasai]: right?
17:24:40 [fantasai]: So we need something different
17:25:02 [Bert]: I can't get a definite answer from our systems people.
17:25:19 [Bert]: We can use it, but nobody is able to predict what impact it will have.
17:26:28 [Bert]: By far the most problematic traffic is for DTDs and schemas, put the CSS pages are fairly popular, too.
17:27:19 [Bert]: The Core Styles are very popular and they have been using SSI for ten years or so, and the server hasn't melted.
17:30:23 [fantasai]: Ok, well
17:33:27 [Bert]: OK, nothing depends on the client, so it will be possible to optimize away SSI if necessary.
17:33:37 [fantasai]: ok
17:34:11 [fantasai]: so, would it work to try replacing /Style/CSS/Test/ with templatized pages?
17:34:14 [fantasai]: using SSI?
17:34:55 [Bert]: Not right now, but I'll ask the systeam to enable SSI for that directory.
17:35:26 [fantasai]: ok
17:35:37 [fantasai]: anything else I'd need to consider?
17:36:33 [Bert]: Not based on what you sent me.
17:37:21 [fantasai]: k
17:37:33 [fantasai]: I'll wait for that request to go through and then give it a try tomorrow or the day after :)
17:55:50 [George]: George has left #css
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18:31:42 [dbaron_]: dbaron_ has joined #css
18:34:27 [Bert]: Fantasai, still there?
18:41:24 [Bert]: Never mind. Sent e-mail.
18:57:08 [fantasai]: got it
18:57:15 [fantasai]: thanks :)
19:00:42 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #css
19:01:00 [fantasai]: RRSAgent: make logs public
19:01:17 [fantasai]: RRSAgent: make minutes
19:01:17 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/07/09-css-minutes.html fantasai