See also: IRC log
<trackbot-ng> Date: 22 May 2008
<ed> scribe: erik
<ed> scribeNick: ed
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/struct-use-205-t.svg
(WG) approved
AE: need to generate a reference image
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228t-svg
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228-t.svg
struct-use-205-t is tentatively approved, opera generates the correct result, will be used for the reference image
we will revisit the issue of how reference images are generated
scribe: since the revision changes we have to generate a new reference image after actually approving the test
AE: need to change the description on udom-svg-228
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-textcontent-201-t.svg
ED: has no pass criteria in description
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-227-t.svg
ED: should only check the lower
bound of the getCurrentTime
... since the resolution of the documettime isn't defined in
spec
(WG) ok, approved after those changes
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/animate-elem-227-t.svg
(WG) approved
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-235-t.svg
AE: using e.name, e.message
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/TraitAccess.common.es is also using e.name and e.message
AG: the test is using id instead of xml:id
(WG) approved
<ChrisL> hi cam
<heycam> hi ChrisL
<ChrisL> we are doing test approvals
<heycam> cool, i saw yesterday's irc log
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228-t.svg
(WG) approved
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/intro-compat-201-t.svg
ED: the pass criteria are missing
(WG) approved
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-233-t.svg
<heycam> itaccess-*
AE: e.name, e.message
(WG) approved
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-glob-204-t.svg
ED: add note about security
exceptions (local -> external domain) and running the
servlet locally
... why is this script using addEventListener("load",
onload...? if it reaches this point it's already run all the
code in the script element
AE: ok, changed
(WG) approved
ED: there was a test like this one yesterday, should be fixed in the same manner
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/animate-elem-219-t.svg
CL: some strange wording in the description
(WG) approved
ED: opera passes this, should be used for reference
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-textcontent-201-t.svg
(WG) approve
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-202-t.svg
CL: should mark output in green and red
<scribe> ACTION: AE to update udom-svgpath-202-t.svg to color the output text in red and green depending on status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2029 - Update udom-svgpath-202-t.svg to color the output text in red and green depending on status [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-05-29].
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg
ED: it's assuming
getTrait("fill") doesn't normalize the color value, but that's
not guaranteed
... would like this test to get some more review
<scribe> ACTION: ED to review http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg and fix the color normalization mismatches in the test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2030 - Review http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg and fix the color normalization mismatches in the test [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-29].
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-201-t.svg
AG: id instead of xml:id
CL: needs change in operatorscript
ED: text isn't colored
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/text-edit-201-t.svg
(WG) tentatively approved, pending reference image from opera
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/styling-inherit-03-t.svg
(WG) approved
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/styling-pres-01-t.svg
(WG) approved
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-202-t.svg
CL: not wellformed
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-201-t.svg
(WG) approved
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-202-t.svg
ED: the spec needs to be clarified on how many parameters each path command has, and how close is normalized
(WG) approved, but the spec needs to be updated
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-201-t.svg
ED: so this is assuming QUAD_TO isn't normalized to CURVE_TO, but the spec says you must do that
<ChrisL> 452 of 574 tests are now approved
(WG) revoke approval of udom-svgpath-201
(WG) revoke approval of udom-svgpath-202
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-202-t.svg
(WG) approved
<ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invertible_matrix
CL: SVG_MATRIX_NOT_INVERTABLE is
what it says in spec, but it's really a typo
... can't change it now, since the constant is used in 1.1 as
well, but we should make a note of it
<ChrisL> after a cvs update .... 464 of 574 tests are approved
<shepazu> scribeNick: shepazu
<scribe> chair: Erik
<ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-progress-events-20071023
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-progress-events-20080521/
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-progress-events-20080521/#Change
aemmons: progressEvents is
referenced by JSR-287
... but not in the SVG namespace
ed: one difference it that it doesn't bubble in the WebAPI spec
shepazu: do we need that?
... I can think of a use case... if you have a group with a lot
of resources, you might want to put the listener on that group
and see which resources resolve...
... we can bring that up to WebAPI
ed: maybe we could remove this from SVG 1.2 Tiny
aemmons: I'd be concerned about
other specs that reference us... they rely on this
... if the ProgressEvents spec become stable we could make a
later revision of SVG that normatively references it
first version is here http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-progress-events-20070419/
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.2
ChrisL: there are some incompatibilities, especially regarding event names
ed: I'm not sure there are serious incompatibilities... as long as the interface remains the same, we can map our names to theirs
aemmons: it looks like ProgressEvents is a superset of our interface, modulo the event names, which is good
Resolution: SVG 1.2 Tiny will keep its progress events, but we will monitor the ProgressEvents spec and encourage compatibility, with the intent to normatively reference it in a later SVG spec
aemmons: so we need test for our progress events
<ChrisL> scribenick: zlatinski
ED: Interest group is the starting topic
<shepazu> DS: SVG IG started from 2 sources
<shepazu> 1) long-standing desire to get more designers involved in SVG WG
<shepazu> (note: the CSS WG tried this, not very successfully... it backfired when the designers were assumed to be comfortable with the spec-producing process, and got frustrated... it came out as negative PR in their blogs)
<shepazu> 2) a conversation with MikeSmith about getting Japanese members more involved by allowing them to communicate in their native language and cultural environment
<ChrisL> SVG IG home http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/
<ChrisL> charter http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-IG-charter.html
<ChrisL> participants http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42368
<ChrisL> patent policy status http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42368/status
DS: the current Micron thinking is to use the current community of helping with testing, or similar or leverage the community to get better results.
CL: I've sent some links on that topic
<ChrisL> We need to figure out a chair, then get wider involvement
AE: We need to brainstormed
ED: Some people are frustrated of the apparent lack of progress on SVG 1.2 full
<ChrisL> I promoted the SVG IG at LGM3 (my slides: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2008/LGM3/cover.svg )
AE: Can somebody write a white paper of the relationship of the different SVG standards?
DS: We need to assign somebody to do that, otherwise it would not happen
AE: Something like SVG tiny and SVG full is superset of it and also different modules
<ChrisL> Good to talk with some designers who are using SVG now, get them to interview us to get the speaking points, then design a flyer that makes that communication
<anthony> scribe: anthony
ED: Should we assign someone to reach out
AE: We need to get designers who use Inkscape and authoring tools to join the IG
DS: Yes we also need to get
people who are designers that aren't using SVG
... we need their input to find out what would make it more
persuasive to use
AE: We need to get at the SVG experts who are currently making SVG services on the IG as well
DS: We need to make SVG such that
they don't care its SVG until they start associating it with
cool graphical features
... Some people are using SVG for its openess
<ChrisL> in particular for interchange between authoring tools
TZ: You could make it more known
graphical designers for example if they knew that browsers
displayed
... as soon as they start caring that whatever they do doesn't
work on their platform they will start finding tools that
do
DS: Maybe we can sell the idea that you can get the source of the SVG and change it to make it how they like and repost
<ChrisL> http://www.codedread.com/ adds the renesis plugin to the support matrix
<ChrisL> http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to approach potential chairs and activity leaders for the SVG IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2031 - Approach potential chairs and activity leaders for the SVG IG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].
<scribe> ACTION: DS to find a leader for the Japanese chapter of the SVG IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2032 - Find a leader for the Japanese chapter of the SVG IG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].
<shepazu> patent policy says "This group does not produce deliverables that are covered by the W3C Patent Policy and therefore have no licensing obligations related to the deliverables they produce. "
<ChrisL> From the IG charter: "The SVG Interest Group provides an opportunity to share perspectives on the topic addressed by this charter. W3C reminds Interest Group participants of their obligation to comply with patent disclosure obligations as set out in Section 6 of the W3C Patent Policy. While the Interest Group does not produce Recommendation-track documents, when Interest Group participants review Recommendation-track specifications from Working Groups, the patent
<ChrisL> Thus, contributions to the IG would need an RF license from the authors same as for a submission)
<ChrisL> above truncated quote from http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-IG-charter.html
DS: We need to make all the patent stuff obvious on the IG Wiki and front page
<ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/
CL: If they are employed by a
member company, they are nominated by their AC rep
... if they are not part of a member company then we go through
invited expert root
DS: We need to have some easy we to have someone join the interest group
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Update the SVG IG page with instructions on how to join [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2033 - Update the SVG IG page with instructions on how to join [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].
<ChrisL> invited expert approval http://www.w3.org/2004/08/invexp.html
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html
DS: I wondered why in my absence this page was edited
AE: So we had discussed finalised
requirements before coming to the F2F
... those changes I did were from the telcons we had
... it's not set in stone
DS: I disagree with removing
where the requirements were coming from
... some of these requirements conflict
AE: I don't agree with that
CL: So the previous page had
details of where things where coming from
... it's useful information to retrain
ED: So you can go back in the history and readd it
CL: Get the previous revision and paste it up the top
AE: Our intention was to have unified requirements that didn't conflict
CL: Maceij makes a point in his
email that the SVG in XHTML already works
... I think this should be style that is encouraged for SVG in
HTML otherwise authors will get confused.
... XHTML should be the format encouraged to use
... because it's known to work today - proven deployment format
for CDF
AE: Doug what is your preference
to approach the problem?
... do we want to hand it off to an XML parser or do we want to
define a parsing model that works in HTML
DS: Neither the extension element
or bare root element doesn't require one of those. That problem
is different to the parsing problem
... So I'm not an implementor but the implements have been
represented as saying they do not want to switch parsers in the
middle of parsing
... not sure how legitimate that is, I've heard reports from
different people
ED: I guess that was Opera's
statement
... the developer I spoke to at Opera was more in favor of
using an XML parser
... because it's already implemented
... saves time and energy in testing
AE: I 100% agree
... sending the XML portion to the XML parser is the natural
thing to do
<aemmons> AE: The argument that it breaks streaming parsers is invalid, we've been able to stream and send to other parsers fine.
DS: [presents example]
... What do you do?
... at what point do you chunk it out and send it to another
parser?
... after parsing the ext element
... ?
... where does it end?/
AE: So do we need a little bit of
information about their parser
... but I don't know how the parsing model works I've never
looked at it
ED: you can define parsing modes
for particular element names
... and that's what they proposed
... they added a special parsing state for SVG and MathML
... and flags for switching between the states
AE: One simplistic way of doing it is parsing it the way of the HTML model and then you send it to the XML
DS: No wait that's not the end of
the ext element
... so this is my point
... when we have content that is not well formed their argument
is the strongest
... when content is well formed SVG doesn't have a problem
[Brain storming about the problem]
AE: Even though the HTML parser is going to parse the SVG it's going to parse unquoted attributes etc and that's what we don't want
TZ: Mozilla uses a 3 phase
approach for parsing
... so when they see something that is HTML they use HTML
parser and when there i something they don't recognise they
switch to XHTML
ED: That's something similar I was discussing with people in Opera
TZ: Mozilla uses expat with a
patch to parse HTML
... the 2nd phase is creating the nodes
... the 3rd phase is doing the reflow
... they push chunks to the reflow
... then after the reflow they start drawing
... if the parser doesn't recognise that unformed element we
get an element error
... if we don't recognise the namespace you keep it in the
DOM
... but just don't know how to handle it
DS: So it puts it in the DOM but
don't do anything with it
... would it kickback to HTML?
TZ: this content provider will
tell you what nodes you allow
... or don't allow
... as soon as you encounter an SVG element you start using
something like an XML parser
... so you keep parsing until you encounter something that you
don't understand
... so you go back to the invoker and say you are at an element
condition what to do. The content provider may say
... if I break here the everything breaks, so you may want to
find the last closing string
DS: So saying parsing something off to the XML parser is not helpful we'll just get mocked
TZ: So there is a draw back, the host language needs to pass down information to tell you where to render at. In SVG you know the dimensions.
ED: In XTML it’s the same. You
can use CSS to define the width and the height
... You can also use the containing element thing using a div,
choose different block nodes
... So that’s the box model that’s used.
TZ: Need some guidelines
ED: So HTML 5 would have to write
something about the problem
... I don't see how it's different from XHTML
DS: This area we can all explore
with out much pain
... we that problem is the parsing model
... we all agree that the negotiation needs be defined
... the first problem is defining the parsing model
<scribe> ACTION: latinski to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - latinski
<scribe> ACTION: antanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - antanas
<scribe> ACTION: atanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2034 - Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [on Atanas (Tony) Zlatinski - due 2008-05-29].
DS: We need to draw up some error cases we need to handle
ED: So this example on the right
so encountering the unknown element in the middle
... what happens?
... does it switch back?
TZ: As soon as you switch back to
the content provider the content provider takes over
... until it reaches a known token
<scribe> ACTION: Doug to draw up error case examples of SVG and HTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2035 - Draw up error case examples of SVG and HTML [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Ext_element
<shepazu> this is my <ext> proposal
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Ext_element#Fallback_Behavior
<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0068.html
AE: So these are comments they sent back to us?
ED: So they are asking if this
resolves our comments
... and I'm not sure it has
... so for example they are saying they don't have a RelaxNG
schema
... and they are kind of writing that they will do it
eventually
AE: So you asked them for the
second point there to add some attributes
... to help align prose in SVG
CL: What I suggest is we prepare
response that has a RelaxNG
... and tell them that it doesn't require as much
infrastructure as DTDs etc
<ed> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/
CL: What's this XHML vocab
document?
... once we define some we should ask them how to get them in
the document?
<ChrisL> ok thanks for the link
<ChrisL> it says its for all vocabularies that use xhtml mod (like SVG 1.1 for example)
ED: So according to this if we
have to specify the roles ourself they would have to be
prefixed with a qualifier
... Judging by that it would be favorable to have them in this
document [link above]
... I guess we are still not clear which roles we want to
have
CL: That would be another thing
we could hand off to an IG
... we could define a bunch of roles to do with maps for
example
... and same for charts
... they are the two big things
DS: Diagrams
CL: By charts I mean graphs
DS: Subway maps, flow charts, that class of thing
CL: We can share some in
common
... have a call out box saying that this means that
DS: A legend would be common to a map and a chart
<scribe> ACTION: Chris to Try to write the RNG for XHTML role module and respond to the email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2036 - Try to write the RNG for XHTML role module and respond to the email [on Chris Lilley - due 2008-05-29].
DS: How would you guys would
prefer to add role to SVG
... as an attribute
AE: Would that add a dependency to 1.2/
DS: It says that we can reference it in our name space
CL: That's probably the best way forward
DS: I agree with you that we
should put it in our own module
... because along with it we define a list of roles to do
... and how they work
... and incorporate the aria stuff
CL: There are various ways to
combine that
... so the reason we want it there is so it's unprefixed
DS: We wouldn't have to prefix it because it's part of our language
AE: Kind of makes sense to define our own module with our roles defined
Resolution: We will make a module that incorporates the role attribute and work with Wai Aria as well as other domain experts to define a set of roles in our module
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42368/instructions
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/it was/the constant is used/ Succeeded: s/DS>/DS:/ Succeeded: s/kEED>/ED:/ Succeeded: s/of not working on SVG full/of the apparent lack of progress on SVG 1.2 full/ Succeeded: s/CL:/DS:/ Succeeded: s/CL: /DS: / Succeeded: s/IF Wiki/IG Wiki/ Succeeded: s/define a parsing/define a parsing model that works in HTML/ Succeeded: s/persers/parsers/ Succeeded: s/parers/parsers/ Succeeded: s/pros/prose/ Found Scribe: erik Found ScribeNick: ed Found ScribeNick: shepazu Found ScribeNick: zlatinski Found Scribe: anthony Inferring ScribeNick: anthony Scribes: erik, anthony ScribeNicks: ed, shepazu, zlatinski, anthony WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AE AG CL ChrisL DS MikeSmith TZ aemmons anthony ed heycam joined left scribenick shepazu svg trackbot-ng zlatinski You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Found Date: 22 May 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html People with action items: ae antanas atanas chris doug ds ed latinski[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]