W3C

- DRAFT -

SVG Working Group Teleconference

22 May 2008

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Regrets
Chair
AE
Scribe
erik, anthony

Contents


 

 

<trackbot-ng> Date: 22 May 2008

<ed> scribe: erik

<ed> scribeNick: ed

1.2 testsuite cont.

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/struct-use-205-t.svg

(WG) approved

AE: need to generate a reference image

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228t-svg

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228-t.svg

struct-use-205-t is tentatively approved, opera generates the correct result, will be used for the reference image

we will revisit the issue of how reference images are generated

scribe: since the revision changes we have to generate a new reference image after actually approving the test

AE: need to change the description on udom-svg-228

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-textcontent-201-t.svg

ED: has no pass criteria in description

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-227-t.svg

ED: should only check the lower bound of the getCurrentTime
... since the resolution of the documettime isn't defined in spec

(WG) ok, approved after those changes

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/animate-elem-227-t.svg

(WG) approved

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-235-t.svg

AE: using e.name, e.message

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/TraitAccess.common.es is also using e.name and e.message

AG: the test is using id instead of xml:id

(WG) approved

<ChrisL> hi cam

<heycam> hi ChrisL

<ChrisL> we are doing test approvals

<heycam> cool, i saw yesterday's irc log

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-228-t.svg

(WG) approved

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/intro-compat-201-t.svg

ED: the pass criteria are missing

(WG) approved

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-233-t.svg

<heycam> itaccess-*

AE: e.name, e.message

(WG) approved

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-glob-204-t.svg

ED: add note about security exceptions (local -> external domain) and running the servlet locally
... why is this script using addEventListener("load", onload...? if it reaches this point it's already run all the code in the script element

AE: ok, changed

(WG) approved

ED: there was a test like this one yesterday, should be fixed in the same manner

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/animate-elem-219-t.svg

CL: some strange wording in the description

(WG) approved

ED: opera passes this, should be used for reference

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-textcontent-201-t.svg

(WG) approve

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-202-t.svg

CL: should mark output in green and red

<scribe> ACTION: AE to update udom-svgpath-202-t.svg to color the output text in red and green depending on status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2029 - Update udom-svgpath-202-t.svg to color the output text in red and green depending on status [on Andrew Emmons - due 2008-05-29].

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg

ED: it's assuming getTrait("fill") doesn't normalize the color value, but that's not guaranteed
... would like this test to get some more review

<scribe> ACTION: ED to review http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg and fix the color normalization mismatches in the test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2030 - Review http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg and fix the color normalization mismatches in the test [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-05-29].

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-201-t.svg

AG: id instead of xml:id

CL: needs change in operatorscript

ED: text isn't colored

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/text-edit-201-t.svg

(WG) tentatively approved, pending reference image from opera

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/styling-inherit-03-t.svg

(WG) approved

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/styling-pres-01-t.svg

(WG) approved

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-202-t.svg

CL: not wellformed

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-201-t.svg

(WG) approved

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-202-t.svg

ED: the spec needs to be clarified on how many parameters each path command has, and how close is normalized

(WG) approved, but the spec needs to be updated

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgpath-201-t.svg

ED: so this is assuming QUAD_TO isn't normalized to CURVE_TO, but the spec says you must do that

<ChrisL> 452 of 574 tests are now approved

(WG) revoke approval of udom-svgpath-201

(WG) revoke approval of udom-svgpath-202

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svgmatrix-202-t.svg

(WG) approved

<ChrisL> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invertible_matrix

CL: SVG_MATRIX_NOT_INVERTABLE is what it says in spec, but it's really a typo
... can't change it now, since the constant is used in 1.1 as well, but we should make a note of it

<ChrisL> after a cvs update .... 464 of 574 tests are approved

<shepazu> scribeNick: shepazu

<scribe> chair: Erik

Progress Events

<ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-progress-events-20071023

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-progress-events-20080521/

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-progress-events-20080521/#Change

aemmons: progressEvents is referenced by JSR-287
... but not in the SVG namespace

ed: one difference it that it doesn't bubble in the WebAPI spec

shepazu: do we need that?
... I can think of a use case... if you have a group with a lot of resources, you might want to put the listener on that group and see which resources resolve...
... we can bring that up to WebAPI

ed: maybe we could remove this from SVG 1.2 Tiny

aemmons: I'd be concerned about other specs that reference us... they rely on this
... if the ProgressEvents spec become stable we could make a later revision of SVG that normatively references it

first version is here http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-progress-events-20070419/

http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.2

ChrisL: there are some incompatibilities, especially regarding event names

ed: I'm not sure there are serious incompatibilities... as long as the interface remains the same, we can map our names to theirs

aemmons: it looks like ProgressEvents is a superset of our interface, modulo the event names, which is good

Resolution: SVG 1.2 Tiny will keep its progress events, but we will monitor the ProgressEvents spec and encourage compatibility, with the intent to normatively reference it in a later SVG spec

aemmons: so we need test for our progress events

<ChrisL> scribenick: zlatinski

Interest Group

ED: Interest group is the starting topic

<shepazu> DS: SVG IG started from 2 sources

<shepazu> 1) long-standing desire to get more designers involved in SVG WG

<shepazu> (note: the CSS WG tried this, not very successfully... it backfired when the designers were assumed to be comfortable with the spec-producing process, and got frustrated... it came out as negative PR in their blogs)

<shepazu> 2) a conversation with MikeSmith about getting Japanese members more involved by allowing them to communicate in their native language and cultural environment

<ChrisL> SVG IG home http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/

<ChrisL> charter http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-IG-charter.html

<ChrisL> participants http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=42368

<ChrisL> patent policy status http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42368/status

DS: the current Micron thinking is to use the current community of helping with testing, or similar or leverage the community to get better results.

CL: I've sent some links on that topic

<ChrisL> We need to figure out a chair, then get wider involvement

AE: We need to brainstormed

ED: Some people are frustrated of the apparent lack of progress on SVG 1.2 full

<ChrisL> I promoted the SVG IG at LGM3 (my slides: http://www.w3.org/Talks/2008/LGM3/cover.svg )

AE: Can somebody write a white paper of the relationship of the different SVG standards?

DS: We need to assign somebody to do that, otherwise it would not happen

AE: Something like SVG tiny and SVG full is superset of it and also different modules

<ChrisL> Good to talk with some designers who are using SVG now, get them to interview us to get the speaking points, then design a flyer that makes that communication

<anthony> scribe: anthony

ED: Should we assign someone to reach out

AE: We need to get designers who use Inkscape and authoring tools to join the IG

DS: Yes we also need to get people who are designers that aren't using SVG
... we need their input to find out what would make it more persuasive to use

AE: We need to get at the SVG experts who are currently making SVG services on the IG as well

DS: We need to make SVG such that they don't care its SVG until they start associating it with cool graphical features
... Some people are using SVG for its openess

<ChrisL> in particular for interchange between authoring tools

TZ: You could make it more known graphical designers for example if they knew that browsers displayed
... as soon as they start caring that whatever they do doesn't work on their platform they will start finding tools that do

DS: Maybe we can sell the idea that you can get the source of the SVG and change it to make it how they like and repost

<ChrisL> http://www.codedread.com/ adds the renesis plugin to the support matrix

<ChrisL> http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php

<scribe> ACTION: Doug to approach potential chairs and activity leaders for the SVG IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2031 - Approach potential chairs and activity leaders for the SVG IG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].

<scribe> ACTION: DS to find a leader for the Japanese chapter of the SVG IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2032 - Find a leader for the Japanese chapter of the SVG IG [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].

<shepazu> patent policy says "This group does not produce deliverables that are covered by the W3C Patent Policy and therefore have no licensing obligations related to the deliverables they produce. "

<ChrisL> From the IG charter: "The SVG Interest Group provides an opportunity to share perspectives on the topic addressed by this charter. W3C reminds Interest Group participants of their obligation to comply with patent disclosure obligations as set out in Section 6 of the W3C Patent Policy. While the Interest Group does not produce Recommendation-track documents, when Interest Group participants review Recommendation-track specifications from Working Groups, the patent

<ChrisL> Thus, contributions to the IG would need an RF license from the authors same as for a submission)

<ChrisL> above truncated quote from http://www.w3.org/2007/11/SVG_rechartering/SVG-IG-charter.html

DS: We need to make all the patent stuff obvious on the IG Wiki and front page

<ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/

CL: If they are employed by a member company, they are nominated by their AC rep
... if they are not part of a member company then we go through invited expert root

DS: We need to have some easy we to have someone join the interest group

<scribe> ACTION: Doug to Update the SVG IG page with instructions on how to join [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2033 - Update the SVG IG page with instructions on how to join [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].

<ChrisL> invited expert approval http://www.w3.org/2004/08/invexp.html

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_in_text-html

SVG in HTML

DS: I wondered why in my absence this page was edited

AE: So we had discussed finalised requirements before coming to the F2F
... those changes I did were from the telcons we had
... it's not set in stone

DS: I disagree with removing where the requirements were coming from
... some of these requirements conflict

AE: I don't agree with that

CL: So the previous page had details of where things where coming from
... it's useful information to retrain

ED: So you can go back in the history and readd it

CL: Get the previous revision and paste it up the top

AE: Our intention was to have unified requirements that didn't conflict

CL: Maceij makes a point in his email that the SVG in XHTML already works
... I think this should be style that is encouraged for SVG in HTML otherwise authors will get confused.
... XHTML should be the format encouraged to use
... because it's known to work today - proven deployment format for CDF

AE: Doug what is your preference to approach the problem?
... do we want to hand it off to an XML parser or do we want to define a parsing model that works in HTML

DS: Neither the extension element or bare root element doesn't require one of those. That problem is different to the parsing problem
... So I'm not an implementor but the implements have been represented as saying they do not want to switch parsers in the middle of parsing
... not sure how legitimate that is, I've heard reports from different people

ED: I guess that was Opera's statement
... the developer I spoke to at Opera was more in favor of using an XML parser
... because it's already implemented
... saves time and energy in testing

AE: I 100% agree
... sending the XML portion to the XML parser is the natural thing to do

<aemmons> AE: The argument that it breaks streaming parsers is invalid, we've been able to stream and send to other parsers fine.

DS: [presents example]
... What do you do?
... at what point do you chunk it out and send it to another parser?
... after parsing the ext element
... ?
... where does it end?/

AE: So do we need a little bit of information about their parser
... but I don't know how the parsing model works I've never looked at it

ED: you can define parsing modes for particular element names
... and that's what they proposed
... they added a special parsing state for SVG and MathML
... and flags for switching between the states

AE: One simplistic way of doing it is parsing it the way of the HTML model and then you send it to the XML

DS: No wait that's not the end of the ext element
... so this is my point
... when we have content that is not well formed their argument is the strongest
... when content is well formed SVG doesn't have a problem

[Brain storming about the problem]

AE: Even though the HTML parser is going to parse the SVG it's going to parse unquoted attributes etc and that's what we don't want

TZ: Mozilla uses a 3 phase approach for parsing
... so when they see something that is HTML they use HTML parser and when there i something they don't recognise they switch to XHTML

ED: That's something similar I was discussing with people in Opera

TZ: Mozilla uses expat with a patch to parse HTML
... the 2nd phase is creating the nodes
... the 3rd phase is doing the reflow
... they push chunks to the reflow
... then after the reflow they start drawing
... if the parser doesn't recognise that unformed element we get an element error
... if we don't recognise the namespace you keep it in the DOM
... but just don't know how to handle it

DS: So it puts it in the DOM but don't do anything with it
... would it kickback to HTML?

TZ: this content provider will tell you what nodes you allow
... or don't allow
... as soon as you encounter an SVG element you start using something like an XML parser
... so you keep parsing until you encounter something that you don't understand
... so you go back to the invoker and say you are at an element condition what to do. The content provider may say
... if I break here the everything breaks, so you may want to find the last closing string

DS: So saying parsing something off to the XML parser is not helpful we'll just get mocked

TZ: So there is a draw back, the host language needs to pass down information to tell you where to render at. In SVG you know the dimensions.

ED: In XTML it’s the same. You can use CSS to define the width and the height
... You can also use the containing element thing using a div, choose different block nodes
... So that’s the box model that’s used.

TZ: Need some guidelines

ED: So HTML 5 would have to write something about the problem
... I don't see how it's different from XHTML

DS: This area we can all explore with out much pain
... we that problem is the parsing model
... we all agree that the negotiation needs be defined
... the first problem is defining the parsing model

<scribe> ACTION: latinski to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - latinski

<scribe> ACTION: antanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - antanas

<scribe> ACTION: atanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2034 - Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [on Atanas (Tony) Zlatinski - due 2008-05-29].

DS: We need to draw up some error cases we need to handle

ED: So this example on the right so encountering the unknown element in the middle
... what happens?
... does it switch back?

TZ: As soon as you switch back to the content provider the content provider takes over
... until it reaches a known token

<scribe> ACTION: Doug to draw up error case examples of SVG and HTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2035 - Draw up error case examples of SVG and HTML [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-05-29].

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Ext_element

<shepazu> this is my <ext> proposal

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Ext_element#Fallback_Behavior

XHTML role

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008May/0068.html

AE: So these are comments they sent back to us?

ED: So they are asking if this resolves our comments
... and I'm not sure it has
... so for example they are saying they don't have a RelaxNG schema
... and they are kind of writing that they will do it eventually

AE: So you asked them for the second point there to add some attributes
... to help align prose in SVG

CL: What I suggest is we prepare response that has a RelaxNG
... and tell them that it doesn't require as much infrastructure as DTDs etc

<ed> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab/

CL: What's this XHML vocab document?
... once we define some we should ask them how to get them in the document?

<ChrisL> ok thanks for the link

<ChrisL> it says its for all vocabularies that use xhtml mod (like SVG 1.1 for example)

ED: So according to this if we have to specify the roles ourself they would have to be prefixed with a qualifier
... Judging by that it would be favorable to have them in this document [link above]
... I guess we are still not clear which roles we want to have

CL: That would be another thing we could hand off to an IG
... we could define a bunch of roles to do with maps for example
... and same for charts
... they are the two big things

DS: Diagrams

CL: By charts I mean graphs

DS: Subway maps, flow charts, that class of thing

CL: We can share some in common
... have a call out box saying that this means that

DS: A legend would be common to a map and a chart

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to Try to write the RNG for XHTML role module and respond to the email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-2036 - Try to write the RNG for XHTML role module and respond to the email [on Chris Lilley - due 2008-05-29].

DS: How would you guys would prefer to add role to SVG
... as an attribute

AE: Would that add a dependency to 1.2/

DS: It says that we can reference it in our name space

CL: That's probably the best way forward

DS: I agree with you that we should put it in our own module
... because along with it we define a list of roles to do
... and how they work
... and incorporate the aria stuff

CL: There are various ways to combine that
... so the reason we want it there is so it's unprefixed

DS: We wouldn't have to prefix it because it's part of our language

AE: Kind of makes sense to define our own module with our roles defined

Resolution: We will make a module that incorporates the role attribute and work with Wai Aria as well as other domain experts to define a set of roles in our module

<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/42368/instructions

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: AE to update udom-svgpath-202-t.svg to color the output text in red and green depending on status [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: antanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: atanas to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Chris to Try to write the RNG for XHTML role module and respond to the email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to approach potential chairs and activity leaders for the SVG IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to draw up error case examples of SVG and HTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Doug to Update the SVG IG page with instructions on how to join [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: DS to find a leader for the Japanese chapter of the SVG IG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: ED to review http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Group/repository/testsuite/1.2T/svg/udom-svg-230-t.svg and fix the color normalization mismatches in the test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: latinski to Draft a proposal for the 3 phase parse model and the SACs based parse model [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html#action06]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.133 (CVS log)
$Date: 2008/05/22 16:32:59 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/it was/the constant is used/
Succeeded: s/DS>/DS:/
Succeeded: s/kEED>/ED:/
Succeeded: s/of not working on SVG full/of the apparent lack of progress on SVG 1.2 full/
Succeeded: s/CL:/DS:/
Succeeded: s/CL: /DS: /
Succeeded: s/IF Wiki/IG Wiki/
Succeeded: s/define a parsing/define a parsing model that works in HTML/
Succeeded: s/persers/parsers/
Succeeded: s/parers/parsers/
Succeeded: s/pros/prose/
Found Scribe: erik
Found ScribeNick: ed
Found ScribeNick: shepazu
Found ScribeNick: zlatinski
Found Scribe: anthony
Inferring ScribeNick: anthony
Scribes: erik, anthony
ScribeNicks: ed, shepazu, zlatinski, anthony

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AE AG CL ChrisL DS MikeSmith TZ aemmons anthony ed heycam joined left scribenick shepazu svg trackbot-ng zlatinski
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
        <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary
        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Found Date: 22 May 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/05/22-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: ae antanas atanas chris doug ds ed latinski

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]