<ChrisW> sandro, nothing on the list

<ChrisW> did our reservation run out?

<csma> what can we do if we do not have a telecon booked?

<sandro> No -- it looks like the bridge itself is okay -- just the IRC part is broken.

<csma> does that mean that we just have to call with the usual code?

<sandro> We're all set.

<ChrisW> christian, we're in

<ChrisW> looks ok

<csma> yep, coming

<ChrisW> hmmmm

ok

<csma> Scribe: Hassan Ait-Kaci

<csma> scribenick: Hassan

Sandro joking ...

No minutes from last meeting ... Mike Dean is not here and was scribing

<AxelPolleres> I have one hour only., please move DTB forward.

Agenda amendment - future of WG?

<AxelPolleres> ... in the agenda.

Agenda amendment - hak to talk about his PS -> XML tool

<csma> next item

<csma> next item

Axel update about F2F10

F2F10

Sandro 11 people have registered

Axel to take questions on F2F10 logistics ...

Axel - taxi is best option - see the wiki page

<csma> next item

I have pbs with my phone line ...

<AdrianP> Zakim who is on the phone

<AdrianP> added test cases - we need to discuss it

<csma> next item

No news from XQuery group

<AdrianP> no news.

<csma> list agenda

DTB

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0042.html

Axel: PS syntax discussion to make it less verbose
... discusses his proposal

Sandro: MK has strong feelings about this issue, but he is not here and has no proxy present

CSMA- I think he would not object to one of the proposal

Sandro - which one?

Axel - I think MK is against macros for IRIs

Axel - he also feels it is too complex

<csma> Michael wrote: "My strong preference is to limit context sensitivity or completely

<csma> eliminate it, but in the spirit of reconciliation I am also willing to go

<csma> with majority :-)

Axel - but I (Axel) do not think it is (the grammar for it)

<csma> in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0046.html

Context sensitivity of macro expansion for ^^ is apparently his worry

Axel - CURIEs are not a general macro definition facility

Sandro: views on the PS
... thinks is ok if it changes after last call

<AdrianP> depends if there are tools which map from the PS to the concrete syntax

<sandro> csma: is there anyone who would object to option-a or option-b in Axel's e-mail?

CSMA - does anyone object to Axel's proposals

<sandro> axel: I would strongly prefer a

<sandro> csma: write "a" or "b"

Straw poll for A or B

<AxelPolleres> a

<AdrianP> 0

0

<Harold> a

<DaveReynolds> a (but I don't really care)

<sandro> a

Gary - prefers a

<ChrisW> 0

<DaveReynolds> Jos said b in his email

<sandro> PROPOSED: Presentation Syntax will follow option 1a in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0042 (allowing <iri> for Const)

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0042.html

<LeoraMorgenstern> Yes, I'm looking at it now --- didn't see it before

<LeoraMorgenstern> no objection

<sandro> PROPOSED: Presentation Syntax will follow option 1a in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0042 (where Const ::= ANGLEBRACKIRI | CURIE | STRING^^ANGLEBRACKIRI | STRING^^CURIE )

<sandro> RESOLVED: Presentation Syntax will follow option 1a in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0042 (where Const ::= ANGLEBRACKIRI | CURIE | STRING^^ANGLEBRACKIRI | STRING^^CURIE )

<sandro> csma: any formal abstains?

<sandro> csma: none.

<ChrisW> same email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0042.html

Axel: make our choice of functions compatible with the sort of style follwoed by Xpath and Xquery
... need to come up with prefixes that are missing

item 2 in Axel's e-mail about DTB questions, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0042.html

Axel: also error-handling ???

<AxelPolleres> PROPOSE: We define own namespace prefixes

<AxelPolleres> PREFIX("pred", "http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-builtin-predicates#").

<AxelPolleres> PREFIX("func", "http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-builtin-functions#").

Sandro: what about using a single rif prefix for everything?

Axel: not thought about, not discussed before

<AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Apr/0196.html

<sandro> Sandro: http://www.w3.org/2007/rif

<AdrianP> a default target name space "rif" which might be omitted is helpful

+1 with Sandro

CSMA: this looks simple - what's wrong with it?

Sandro: perhaps some cases could be thought where we may want it
... it being more than one prefix

<sandro> rifop:sum and rifpred:sum

<sandro> rif:sumFunc and rif:sumPref

Are predicate boolean functions?

Sandro: do we need to decide right now? Can we proceed for now and settle this detail later?

<Harold> What about: Prefix("pred" "http://www.w3.org/2007/rif/builtins/predicates#")

Axel: ok

<csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0046.html

CSMA: MK objected to having several prefixes

Axel: ok so what does it mean now?

CSMA: there are two issues one prefix for rif and others for other constructs

<AxelPolleres> +1 to allow PREFIX only in the preamble of a ruleset.

MK: explains his views

<DaveReynolds> Surely in the XML there would be no curies anyway?

MK: use it in directives in the PS

CSMA: there are two issues what prefix we use and how do we declare them

MK: the syntax is going to be the same
... it will only appear as a directive

<sandro> PROPOSED: (on Axel's point 4) go with PREFIX as Axel proposes, as long as in the presentation syntax it is in a pre-amble, as a directive, so it is not easily confused with a fact.

<sandro> PROPOSED: (on Axel's point 4) go with PREFIX as Axel proposes, as long as in the presentation syntax it is in a pre-amble, as a directive, so it is not easily confused with a fact (and using space instead of comma).

<Harold> PROPOSED: (on Axel's point 4) go with Prefix as Axel proposes (whitespace between prefix name and uri), as long as in the presentation syntax it is in a pre-amble, as a directive, so it is not easily confused with a fact.

<sandro> PRefix -- to throw a bone to the PR community.

Dave Reynolds: need to clarify that this does not apply to the XML syntax

<sandro> DaveReynolds: this is only in the presentation syntax. it does not in any way carry over to XML.

MK: will guve a translation table

Dave Reynolds: no it should not ne there at all

<AxelPolleres> As we also used 'External' I am also fine with 'Prefix'

<sandro> Sandro: oh, right -- the prefix information is lost when you translate PS to XML.

MK: ok ...

<sandro> PROPOSED: (on Axel's point 4) go with Prefix as Axel proposes (whitespace between prefix name and uri), as long as in the presentation syntax it is in a pre-amble, as a directive, so it is not easily confused with a fact.

<AxelPolleres> 'External' is like that

Everyone: discussion on case sensitivity

<sandro> Sandro: as long as we can have it be case insensitive or something. I don't want to rule out matchin N3 and SPARQL at some point.

<sandro> Sandro: IE -- we're talking about this draft, -- not setting it for all time.

<sandro> RESOLVED: (on Axel's point 4) go with Prefix as Axel proposes (whitespace between prefix name and uri), as long as in the presentation syntax it is in a pre-amble, as a directive, so it is not easily confused with a fact.

MK: BTW in XML it would be translated as an entity - it would make things easier

Sandro: we should not worry about this that much

MK: still prefers entities

<AxelPolleres> I can do an update of the DTB document by the F2F, or by next friday.

<AxelPolleres> gotta rush now

<sandro> Sandro: how about go with axel's 2-a for now, until/unless some problem appears.

<AxelPolleres> fine to fo with 2)a) for the moment.

<sandro> ACTION: axel update DTB according to today's decisions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-rif-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-478 - Update DTB according to today's decisions [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-05-20].

CSMA: anything to add regarding DTB?

<csma> list agenda

Issues 53, 33 and 39

CSMA: discusses consensus with Sandro closing issue 52 keeping the current draft of BLD as it is

this means that other issues can be moved out of BLD

CSMA: Any discussion?

<sandro> PROPOSED: to close issue 52 [3] per the current version of BLD draft, with the understanding that issues 33 [4] and 39 [5] are movedout of BLD critical path as a consequence.

Dave Reynolds: discusses issues with multiple conflicting profiles

CSMA: see action on Jos

<Harold> IRC chat from last week: http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-rif-minutes.html

<sandro> PROPOSED: to close issue 52 per the current version of BLD draft, with the understanding that issues 33 and 39, and the new issue to be raised about profile mixing, are moved out of BLD critical path as a consequence.

<sandro> PROPOSED: to close issue 52 per the current version of BLD and SWC drafts, with the understanding that issues 33 and 39, and the new issue to be raised about profile mixing, are moved out of BLD critical path as a consequence.

Dave Reynolds: worries about conflicting multiple profiles

Sandro: perhaps for now just issue an error

Dave: ok - I'll go along with that for now

Sandro: similar issues are being discussed in other WGs - we should coordinate with them

<sandro> RESOLVED: to close issue 52 per the current version of BLD and SWC drafts, with the understanding that issues 33 and 39, and the new issue to be raised about profile mixing, are moved out of BLD critical path as a consequence.

<csma> next item

<csma> next item

CSMA: reviews open issues about BLD
... pls everybody should review that list and make all comments ASAP before F2F10

MK: metadata is the biggest issue left I think

CSMA: what about data type extensibility?

MK: yes I will take the issue as part of my action on compliance

CSMA: what to ensure that when this list is closed everything will be fine

MK: thinks of addding a reader's orientation map to ease navigation
... this should be on the BLD todo list

Sandro: we should draft it first
... agree on the idea, but not sure who's going to do it. I started looking into it

MK: also need discuss dialect extension (perhaps in the compliance issues document)

Sandro: difference between documents and web page
... people get mistaken about document authorship

<sandro> Sandro: this roadmap document well be cited in papers as RIF.

Dave Reynolds: this issues list seems to lack some regarding on XML syntax (naming etc...)

CSMA: it is in the list

<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/ToDo_before_BLD_last_call

CSMA: there are 4 issues at the bottom of the list on those issues
... XML syntax being not complete is not listed as issue - perhaps it should be listed explicitly

Harold: perhaps this is the last thing to do?

<csma> next topic

<csma> next item

Future on the WG? Sandro?

Sandro: discusses his email on this point overviewing possibilities

ChrisW: when do we need to decide that?

Sandro: we could discuss it now in the mailing list

CSMA: a resolution for next week is more sensible

Sandro: everyone needs to consult with their management regarding continuation

<Harold> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008May/0074.html

Dave Reynolds: asks about the proposal details

Sandro: the WG can only give a recommendation

<Harold> "The big question for each of you is whether this will work for you and

<Harold> your organization. Will you stay involved, contributing to this effort

<Harold> for another year?"

+1 on adjourning

scribe next week: Dave Reynolds

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133  of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51  
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Found Scribe: Hassan Ait-Kaci
Found ScribeNick: Hassan
Present: Sandro ChrisW LeoraMorgenstern csma AdrianP_(muted) AxelPolleres Harold DaveReynolds Gary_Hallmark Hassan_Ait-Kaci Mark_Proctor Michael_(late)
Regrets: MichaelKifer JosDeBruijn

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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting

Got date from IRC log name: 13 May 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/05/13-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: according axel dtb update

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