See also: IRC log
<Rich> scribe: oedipus
<Rich> last irc discussion thread on math: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0453.html
<MichaelC> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0547.html (first item only)
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
<scribe> scribeNick: oedipus
RS: trying to get your math
request added to aria; think is great thing to add; want to 1)
meet your needs and 2) provide best practices for embedding
math
... last thread in IRC
<Rich> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0453.html
AG: 19 March 2008 -- you replied, but bunch of technical details
RS: new math role -- what does it mean? how to use? how to reuse ALT text? how to handle images?
NS: brought up with MathML WG --
asked if had comments; some of things we discussed in PF email
exchange came up -- restrictions on what type of math should be
placed in a math role; MathML WG felt that a lot of stuff out,
for past compatibility not good to abandon what is being done
today and historically -- mix of TeX and MathML
... none of them are tagged identifying what they are; existing
practice wide-open and that needs to stop
... sniffer trying to find math will be able to tell TeX,
MathML, or similar syntax
... leave open-ended and not specify
... second: subtype "math-tex" -- discarded as bad idea -- to
ambigous; too many TeX variants
... third issue: if math, might not be any alt text in suitable
format, but down the road one could use OCR to pull equation
from image -- already an OCR for math with acuracy in 97%
range; again, not tagged, but open ended
... fourth: didn't care where it is -- BP can say "use alt text
or use image" but one kind of math out there is JSMath -- uses
TeX-like base to create javascripted (inaccessible) math
... don't want to force math into an image that has to be
parsed
... no single practice -- math kind of a "wild west" frontier
trying to get integrated into HTML
RS: what does having role="math" help with all formats?
NS: key thing which will allow anyone to do a11y -- 1) given cost of trying to discover math, having tag iding as math, keys a sniffer/handler to find and discover format; second) alerts AT that this is Math and calls a handler to come up with text to speak it, rather than gibberish
we are in #aria-math for math discussion
switch to #aria-math
NS: MathML WG felt that using attribute value "math" too general (plot, diagram, formula) want to restrict it more -- suggested "formula" or MSAAEquation
AG: MSAAEquation was the suggestion
RS: if prefer math, can in API mapping documents map to role="equation"
NS: not as picky as rest of wg, but thought "equation" restricted it and was more precise and maps well to what already exists
AG: a) have to channel simon p --
was pressuring us to have this fully specificied -- thinking
that he is building into HTML5 and browser -- challanged that
-- this is a flag AT uses to call helper -- it is the helper
that decides how loose or strict it is going to be able to grok
and that above 85% success would be BIG win
... where existing equations are in TeX can do that
... akward thing in that HTML has history of getting into
trouble with putting sloppy definitions in specs which lead to
differing/sloppy implementations; authos have been upset about
what happens when their code hits the browser; strong desire in
HTML WG to nail things down better and have more specific
specificiation -- need to distinguish what role is here -- HTML
and base UA not going to do everything for everyone
NS: math may be embedded in image -- may not even be perceptable to HTML parser
AG: SimonP would want to be quick -- if you are happy to sniff/ping inserts and give a sign "math handlers/sniffers" go find and process this; in accessibility also have problem -- in WCAG developed concept of accessibly supported technologies -- loose outer defninition (function performance) then "and furthermore if use this technique with this technology, value gets through to end user:
s/user;/user;
AG: value of "math" or "equation"
is describing intent -- how you should understand this fragment
of content;
... when tell authors what to do, need "and furthermore if you
do this, it is supported" so both a loose and a stricter
statement
<kenny> michael, I am using skype for this call today.
NS: should be suggestion in Best Practices that says "this technology will be exposed/found if you do x with y app" -- would not leave open ended if starting from scratch, but since ARIA attempting to capture meaning in current practice and those practices vary greately
RS: mark this as "equation" here are common BP to support interoperability today, but is there an optional parameter for "equation" you would want?
NS: 2 things: 1) where is the
math going to be found; 2) give me a strong clue as to what
type of math i need to deal with (self-discoverable)
... with TeX similar, but different -- one thing not well
understood about TeX was written without logical parser --
doesn't tokenize things but tokenizes each character
... some variants of TeX tokenize elements; things like that
make TeX an open ended thing
... would be nice to specify that, but 20 variantsof TeX and
many implementations follow custom rules
AG: took first pass at approach: didn't address "casting to a dialect" but did point to where can find; put encoded math in ALT attribute one pattern has to be looked for (proably a search list); what is new in ARIA is "describedby" points to something for people or machines -- could point to a machine understandable -- could develop conventions for TeX -- ways to put into meta data (use SCRIPT that not displayed, ask what type of script, get return) -- hav
RS: describedby like a long desc
for area in document
... can hide with CSS or have visible; gets mapped to
accessible description in a11y APIs so one can extract text if
needed;
... suggestion on how to process math object? OCR it, use
description (describedby)
... can't specify TeX because too many variants
NS: right
... question i have which hasn't been answered by PF is "how
important is compatibility with existing use cases?" -- is goal
of ARIA to change and constrain use of math to make more
accessible or just trying to describe current usage
RS: ARIA about interoperability with platform a11y APIs -- everything needs to be obtained through APIs; could say, if use ARIA, this is how you should use it for math -- if in best interest of industry -- use of ARIA might direct them to a more consistent use of math on web
NS: driving factor on some, but
not all, putting math in HTML is terseness; some use TeX-like
notation that uses javascript to "prettify" --
wikipedia/wikimedia has extension that creates TeX from ascii
notation or to describe image containing math
... JSMath -- if javascript really doing writing, could put out
more description
... maybe verbosity is not an issue on second thought -- tool
will generate extra stuff
AG: wikipedia case where site doing patern driven transform is good likelihood of uptake thing -- getting JSMath library to generate more stuff would rate down
NS: working with us
AG: maybe will work with us like
dojo
... everyone in end cares about character count -- not just
mobile providers; wasted chars not good idea -- if put TeX in
alt and mark with role then should work -- content devlopers
who want to put in different flavors of TeX, that we have the
"try harder" coding patterns we target for when more than just
an image and alt text
JRG: ideally what is most accesible way to put math on web
NS: MathML -- works with XHTML no problem, but problem with HTML -- if you only use IE, can put in HTML document and IE extention mechanism will handle it, but nothing in firefox or safari
RS: role="equation" - source equals "URI for mathML" and let AT suck it out
NS: URIs have 2000 character limits?
AG: good question
RS: here is URI for source of that, don't need alt text -- if you understand MathML go get it
AG: problem when src used to point to math image
RS: can handle that
AG: HLink versus XLink wars
NS: essentially 1 thing saying
let's make it explicit and put on image or embed tag -- MathML
WG trying to make math more interoperable -- people carry
around images, but leave alt text behind; embedding in image
safe way to go -- always there
... extractable from image, not dependent on alt -- TeX part of
image
... not bad idea to have attribute that make these things
obvious, but worry about fragility of extraction method
RS: like to have 2 vehicles in BP: role="equation" -- in BP say "store equivalent text in image"
NS: here are 3 or 4 ways that are
supported by most extraction techs
... 1 would be ALT text (current practice); other would be
using "describedby" and other in image itself
RS: no URL to mathml equiv
NS: not sure
AG: should be supported
GJR: strong plus one
AG: if provider has equation in MathML, need to know -- want to use that if present
RS: mathML equiv to give URL (optional parameter)
NS: why just MathML? if to make discovery easy, shouldn't be limited to MathML -- just URL of equivalent
RS: server could tell media type when pull down TeX
NS: is a text format
MC: datatype or new mime-type property?
AG: has to be tested to make sure current implementations of OBJECT won't break; if put in OBJECT and make MathML first choice, that is the Best Practice possible; problem is whith mime-types for MathML
NS: persued and rejected by MathML WG
AG: problem: UA can't determine ahead of time if can process MathML -- doesn't know MathML is MathML until gets it
RS: right
NS: sigh, right
... though OBJECT has own problems
AG: matter of debate -- tantek
told us it has been fixed; HTML5 faction against it (VIDEO,
AUDIO, etc.) -- shouldn't lose cascading fallback idea; want to
wait to have highest and best form avialable
... issues: need mime-type identifier; need extractor for TeX
in image
<kenny> Do we know if any screen readers today support LaTex?
MC: putting mathML in attributes means using escape characters
AG: TeX in alt rather than MathML
<kenny> Thanks gregory.
AG: if load into IFRAME, how is communicated to UA that this thing contains math -- application/xml+mathml -- if can't process XML move onto something else
NS: not going to work right now
GJR: MC can WCAG2 address the author's best practice by advising that TeX be embeded in an image
AG: interim technique; also want to fix the web so highest and best math (MathML) can be documented as object and served to users
NS: MathML in HTML5 -- consensus
that math will be in HTML5 -- probably MathML in some as yet
unkown/specified form
... want to discourage hacks
AG: agree -- just trying to separate 2 issues: need role now so something can be processed and
GJR: need to take info to WCAG and ATAG
RS: if alt text not in document, are you going to pull alt text out of image and map to a11y api?
NS: don't think UA itself would
do sniffing (although would be great if would) -- UA's not the
ones that turn MathML into speech, AT vendors don't want to
handle MathML directly, so would have to use Expert Handler
(http://a11y.org/handlers) --
there is pllugin for IE that allows speech -- AT essential to
getting braille support
... developed tech to go out and pull the alt text out, paste
into equation editor; port that back into viewer -- take the
TeX translate to MathML then run through MathML to Speech and
MahtML to braille engines -- very doable; current limitation --
plugin calls for MathML and need to do javascript on imagesand
scan of page to determine what math is there in what form
... if have role="math" could limit search
AG: summarize: if the user has a png format for their picture of equation and put embedded meta-data in png, not expect browser to put into API as accessible description -- can take alt text and processed as usual; if mathML in embedded, math helper might write good description into accessibility API
NS: ARIA exported to AT,
javascript that binds will do translation and in case of UAs
not serving up dom, can rewrite page AT should pick up
... alt text put out as value field in MSAA?
RS: no, AccessibleName and helpInformation -- MSAA has description API (equiv of help) IA2 has relationships that understand "describedby"; don't know what UIAutomation plans
NS: whatever written, write correctly, even if in alt
RS: wearing AT vendor hat, if TeX embedded in image, would want to know that if don't have TeX plugin
NS: what is loud and clear from AT vendors is "we're not dealing with math; you do that, tell us what to put out, and we'll support it" not going to search DOM, will speak if is there -- don't want to fetch image and parse it
RS: 2 things: 1) either can put a describedby as technique or a tool can fulfill that role; 2) HTML5 people will not like URL pointing
NS: HTML5 people will tell you
that they will handle math as text/html -- dubious at this
point if possible
... describedby field in TeX or MathML -- if had javascript
that looks for math and outputs speech, is it still
"describedby"?
AG: describedby takes list of IDs
-- have to revisit what UAs do with concatonated methods
... can't do this on fly, but are things can write into DOM
that can capture (SSML)
NS: with MSAA can't use SSML,
have to use straight text
... as long as you come up with soulition that describedby is
machine field, need to id field that needs priority to generate
speech, braille, etc.
AG: hoemwork item, but this discussion has GREATLY cleared up the issues; thought going to take directoy to APIs -- if put back into DOM, have to rethink thorugh fully so AT ends up with it
NS: found varying levels of commitment from AT vendors: base level - have MSAA interface, but that is limited to string of text (can't put braille in that -- text you put in isn't braille you get out in math) -- that's why have to expose handler interface to all UAs all ATs all platforms; minimum base is ability to take math code and output speech
RS: braille involves fight with AT
NS: we dont' speak things, we return text for speech and braille engines
AG: take back to ATs -- knee-jerk reaction is that that is part of procedure call on dispatching expert handler -- should know if have braille device and follow user's preference; Fluid Project beating on W3C elsewhere, so will be a W3C user prefernces in context that can be exposed
RS: don't want future equivalent
for MathML
... "equation" or "math"
LP: preference for math -- it's shorter
NS: MathML prefered equation, personally don't care
AG: can live with either -- math good idea now -- authors will relate better to math - will think equation doesn't always apply
RS: can say in description "this is a math equation"
NS: not equations, expressions, but...
RS: math expression in definition
<Al> +1
+1
<Rich> +1
<kenny> +1
LP +1
<Jon> +1
raman gave +1 to "math" on list
RESOLUTION: ARIA will use math role type; in definition will state that this is a "math expression"
rssagent make minutes
RS: describedby a universal property, right?
MC: yes
RS: don't have to say antyhing explicit in spec about math, but a BP thing; have to compose best practices section 1) alternative text embedded in image, third party app extracts info and load "describedby" with that info, or may speak, or author may but in "describedby" himslef
NS: describedby -- words to speak or what should be written into DOM using existing API bindings
AG: need to get AaronL (mozilla) and SimonP (opera) in on this
RS: best way to speak it (as long as not changing voice dynamics) == that way AT doesn't have to think alot to deliver to TTS or braille device
NS: machine encoding shouldn't be part of "describedby"
AG: how does API binding respect cascade of acceptable forms
NS: someone could manually use field -- need to know if field exists
AG: action/homework item: UA best
practice for AT helper (expert handler -- if writes back into
DOM, how to do it)
... need browser brothers to address this
RS: if start putting other markup in there, going to go bonkers
AG: are we going to say if TeX in image and can figure how to say that can overwrite ALT and go with that -- haven't been considering that piece of problem
NS: 2 ways: 1) we say "override ALT or describedby" and put in description AT can pick up: 2) tighter binding -- id as Math -- call expert handler, and that will tell us what to say -- that fall back position is needed -- may be rewriting ALT or describedby -- should process, put back into DOM
AG: for PF, in terms of browsers binding DOM to API, much plainer if return to AT that called handler than figuring out override; don't want to overwrite something suitable to speak that is only handled by handler; handler api has to return best advoice on how to speak or braille expression
RS: what is best practice: how does an AT know that an expert handler/plugin (MathPlayer - works only in IE)
NS: have to work with each AT
vendor to tell them "when you get to this node, use our
interfaces" when you get to our interface, then speak,
highlight, braille-output
... plug-in a dll that gets into registry
... want standard way that says "here is how you work with
expert handler" rather than one-off solutions
AG: browsers look like going to implement ARIA, will be refelected in accessibleRole in API -- if use a11y API can bootstrap off of that, determine if math and then ask for help
RS: preferential way to look at describedby or alt -- that would be what is to be spoken
NS: JavaScript solution is a cross-platform base fallback -- can't give highlighting or braille currnetly; if could write SSML into math speech, would be much better, but if stuck with plain text, fake it with commas and periods and other klduges
AG: small SSML implementations not available yet
RS: if use describedby method should be processable in speech
NS: exactly what i did with
MSAA/SAPI5 -- value field with plain text
... like RS' solution
RS: need to put something in best practices -- don't need to do anything special with UA devs
AG: have in our vocab "valuetext" -- if make "valuetext" apply to math role, have place to stuff it
RS: [ponders] --
NS: can it be a long string?
RS: yes
... currently valuetext associated with valuemax valuemin
etc.
AG: document has tools to deal with it attribute by attribute -- math role has this property: "valuetext" defaults to how to say, can also put in how to braille
RS: in HTML what is maximum lenght of string
AG: have to look for it
... generic limit on strings 255
MC: anything directed towards human should be in an element
RS: between 2 tags can be as long as want
AG: that points to describedby over valuetext -- problem: have to work with AT so that role="math" goies straight to describedby and prcess it in its entirety
RS: think have enought to write something up
ACTION ARIA Editors: write up proposal for role="math" and best practices for its use
<kenny> bye
NS: happy to participate as needed
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) FAILED: s/user;/user;/ Succeeded: s/hel/help/ Succeeded: s/soultiion/solution/ Found Scribe: oedipus Inferring ScribeNick: oedipus Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita Found ScribeNick: oedipus Scribes: oedipus, Gregory_Rosmaita Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, Cooper, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Al, +1.512.238.aaaa, James_Nurthen, Pete_Brunet, Matt_May, SotosBarkas, Neil_Soiffer, Jon_Gunderson, marcsil, Kenny_Johar, +1.919.523.aabb, Lisa_Pappas Present: Al_Gilman Gregory_Rosmaita James_Nurthen Jon_Gunderson Lisa_Pappas Michael_Cooper Neil_Soiffer Pete_Brunet Rich_Schwerdtfeger Kenny_Johar Marc_Silbey Matt_May Regrets: Janina_Sajka Sally_Cain Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JanMar/0547.html Got date from IRC log name: 31 Mar 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/03/31-aria-math-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]