See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Jan
370 not 270
JA: We have a bunch of people on the call
All: Introductions...
SH: Is officially now the
alternate for this group...
... Accessibility business group
GR: Introduces self
JB: Does WAI stuff
... Will be UAWG co-chair 3-6 months
AC: Hoping to be invited expert on keyboard access
JB: Group is in process of
developing new charter
... By next meeting it will be public to group
... Group needs to be rechartered for rec track work for
uaag2
JA: Next wee, I'll give regrets
JB: Me too
JA: will work it out online
... Today we have invited guests for keyboard access
... Access to keyboard interface of browser itself and content
for users NOT using AT
... Part of discoverable etc.
JA: Current version in public WD:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/
... THen also two links as we got more into this:
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
JA: There are lots of
nuances
... So this is not programmatic determinable...
... It's about ability to see and ineefficiently use
JB: Some background...lots of
talk in TEITAC 508 group over past 4-6 weeks
... In the end, there seemed to be 3 distinct aspects...
... 1. Programmatic access via AT
... SH might have concerns about that one so good to talk
about
... 2. Also peripheral issue how keyboard shortcuts get
documented- at end of TEITAC we said available in "electronic
documentation"
... Looks like would have been likely concenssu
... 3. What kinds of shortcuts can be indicated
... This was much trickier to figure out welll
... I will be commenting that we didn't get close enough to
wording on this
... So hoping to get good solutions on this in UAAG2 and then
maybe suggesting wording back to TEITAC committee
AC: Good preamblr
JA: So...
JB: Should we look at the draft?
JA: OK
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-operable
Guideline 4.1
SH: Reasonable intro of TEITAC discussion
<AllanJ> discussion emails a) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html b)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html
SH: In summary my issues are about scoping
JR: Clarifies timeline on those emails
GR: Just wanted to ask about
electronic documentation
... Makes me think online documentation
JB: More than that...and other
individual said could be on CDROM
... I'm ok as long as it is accessible electonically....
... Not immediate access issue
GR: OK because if online...should be locally cached when refreshed
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask on JB's point 2 if "electronic" means "online" and if so, shouldn't caching of such documents locally be a requirement?
AC: Reading over principal
4....
... Some comments ...when I look at 4...
... Ensure full keyboard access is too vague
... So can do all be keyboard...
... Also efficiency is vital
... Then that they all be discoverable
... Then reading note....
... Should be careful about term "keyboard shortcuts"
... Should be thinking about general techniques ...
... Not about memorizing shortcuts
... More like conveying keyboard access, rather than shortcuts
which is specific mechanism
JA: Thanks
... The guideline is short mnemonic thing...
... Meat of it is the success criteria
... @@'s are notes to ourselves
JB: Comment about
termininology...
... Very useful to get better shorthand for discussing these
things
... In TEITAC often got tripped up by saying "kyeaboard
shortcuts"
... Generally don't like loits of specialized jargon but maybe
useful here.
... Looking again....
... Language you were wondering about is what's in our
note...
SH: Issue/question on
4.1.1....
... You have "operate all of the functions included in the user
interface"...
... IN WCAG, TEITAC...all the functions that can be gotten at
in the user interface,,,,
... Not necessirliy clear
JR: Points out "This applies to
at least one mechanism per "browsing outcome"@@DEFINE@@,
allowing non-keyboard accessible mechanisms to remain available
(e.g., providing resizing with mouse-"handles" and with
keystrokes).@@"
... Agreed that it might not be clear
JA: Some things in 4.1....not
necassirly things we have issues with...
... Looking at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html
AC: Anything about visual indicators
NOTE: Keyboard shortcut probably needs a definition that excludes
keyboard controls for sequential navigation (arrow keys, ENTER, TAB, etc.)
SH: In MS we have accelerator
key...and then we have shortcut keys
... Accelerator key moves you faster to visible
things...shortcut keys go to hiddent things..then there are
keys to drive mouse etc
JB: I think we really need to collect relevant vocab
JR: Does someone have this already?
SH: MSDN might have something?
AC: Think it's really important
to get crisp defintions
... All tend to blend together
JA: Gregory, with your linux work...if you could find terminilogy would be useful
KF: MacOS has same concepts, I'll have to go look
GR: Tried to get Apple into keyboard group
<scribe> ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<oedipus> ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility documents for terminology [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<judy> ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on discussion of keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html#action03]
GR: Just want to tell people that they can check minutes on mailing list archives
<KFord> One example of MSDN on keyboards is http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms645526.aspx
GR: Also gives "minutes" URL
JA: Back to message...
(1) Visual Keyboard Shortcut Indicator ("Chrome"): Provide a user
setting in which currently visible user interface "chrome" components
visually indicated their keyboard shortcuts, IF ANY (e.g., with
accesskey letters underlined).
AC: So refers specifically to
what keys are
... In FF, tabs have no indications
SH: So this one brings out issue
clearly...
... In windows...press Alt...
... Brings up mode...Alt-F....moves focus but doesn't
activate...but ctrl S
KF: But actually those actually do do something....
SH: So yes distinguishing functionality versus operating the UI
JB: So if I hit alt key I get
....underlines first letter....
... Then can visually scan....
... But everything has visual indicator....
... Good for someone with limited hand use...
KF: Alt just activates menu bar
<AllanJ> JR: Alt shifts focus to menu bar, Alt-F, O activates 'open'
<AllanJ> ... some keys move focus, others activate a control
SH: Yes...so only talking about indicators you can see
JB: One thing I worry about is "sequential"
SH: Think this is
reasonable
... Thinks "IF ANY" is important...some items don't have any
direct keyboard shortcuts
AC: By convention when on menu....up and down arrow keys provide a way to navigate in direction of arrow keys
SH: Nothing in UI that makes you
know that arrows do something
... Implicit
JA: In windows when I do an
alt-F...
... There are other actionable keys....O....to Open
... Think that's what JB is getting at
SH: IN IE , "favourites" list is dynamic so don't have accelerators
AC: But can use alphabetical keys
JA: Nuance there we need to try
and capture
... Tool may provide efficient nav...but without
indicator...
GR: You would also want to capture ability for user to resort
eg. to be able to alphabetize
KF: Yes can sort favourites but not allowed to sort items in other menus
JB: I don't really use
IE...but...
... When I get to bookmark menu...
... I'm looking for tools tha tlet me organize, but also I'm
more tolerant of sequential access since I "caused the mess"
maybe?
GR: When using windows in classic mode, can have personalized menus...can also hide infrequentally used things
In some other tools can move things around in menus
AC: In office products it was
easy to customize menus
... Grouping etc.
... Doing software customization ... avbility to remove unused
items is very important
<oedipus> amen (plus 1)
SH: THere is still lots of customization in Office2007
JB: Higly discoverable customization important
JA: Need to jump in...
... Even though Judy and I won't be here next week...discussion
should continue next week
KF: Discussion seems to have
veered...
... Are we saying I should be able to specify chrome elements
and layout of them?
GR: Yes
AC: Yes
... Logical end of fully customizable.
JR: Can chair next week.
JA: Very productive thanks
JB: Thanks
GR: Everything so interrelated
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Jan Inferring ScribeNick: Jan Default Present: KFord, Allanj, Jan, Judy, Cantor, Gregory_Rosmaita, SeanH Present: KFord Allanj Jan Judy Cantor Gregory_Rosmaita SeanH Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0068.html Got date from IRC log name: 27 Mar 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html People with action items: gregory jb sh WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]