17:38:49 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:38:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-irc 17:38:57 Zakim, this will be UAWG 17:38:58 ok, Jan; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start 38 minutes ago 17:39:06 Meeting: WAI UA 17:39:36 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0068.html 17:39:41 Chair: Jim Allan 17:39:47 Scribe: Jan 17:43:34 AllanJ has joined #ua 17:52:27 KFord has joined #ua 17:53:51 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:53:58 +[Microsoft] 17:54:17 zakim, [Microsoft] is really KFord 17:54:17 +KFord; got it 17:54:48 + +1.512.206.aaaa 17:55:35 zakim, +1.512.206.aaaa is really Allanj 17:55:35 +Allanj; got it 17:56:26 +[IPcaller] 17:56:43 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 17:56:43 +Jan; got it 17:58:34 judy has joined #ua 17:59:15 +Judy 18:00:42 +Cantor 18:02:37 + +0154558aabb 18:02:41 +Gregory_Rosmaita 18:03:00 zakim, +0154558aabb is really SeanH 18:03:00 +SeanH; got it 18:03:29 370 not 270 18:04:54 JA: We have a bunch of people on the call 18:05:07 All: Introductions... 18:05:39 SH: Is officially now the alternate for this group... 18:05:49 SH: Accessibility business group 18:06:32 GR: Introduces self 18:07:03 JB: Does WAI stuff 18:07:22 JB: Will be UAWG co-chair 3-6 months 18:07:36 AC: Hoping to be invited expert on keyboard access 18:07:50 JB: Group is in process of developing new charter 18:08:16 JB: By next meeting it will be public to group 18:08:34 JB: Group needs to be rechartered for rec track work for uaag2 18:08:42 JA: Next wee, I'll give regrets 18:08:46 JB: Me too 18:09:04 JA: will work it out online 18:09:19 JA: Today we have invited guests for keyboard access 18:09:43 JA: Access to keyboard interface of browser itself and content for users NOT using AT 18:09:52 JA: Part of discoverable etc. 18:10:09 Topic: 1. Keyboard Access 18:10:32 JA: Current version in public WD: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/ 18:10:52 JA: THen also two links as we got more into this: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html 18:11:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html 18:11:09 JA: There are lots of nuances 18:11:23 JA: So this is not programmatic determinable... 18:11:37 JA: It's about ability to see and ineefficiently use 18:12:02 JB: Some background...lots of talk in TEITAC 508 group over past 4-6 weeks 18:12:19 JB: In the end, there seemed to be 3 distinct aspects... 18:12:35 JB: 1. Programmatic access via AT 18:12:54 JB: SH might have concerns about that one so good to talk about 18:13:36 JB: 2. Also peripheral issue how keyboard shortcuts get documented- at end of TEITAC we said available in "electronic documentation" 18:13:52 JB: Looks like would have been likely concenssu 18:14:14 JB: 3. What kinds of shortcuts can be indicated 18:14:24 JB: This was much trickier to figure out welll 18:14:54 JB: I will be commenting that we didn't get close enough to wording on this 18:15:27 JB: So hoping to get good solutions on this in UAAG2 and then maybe suggesting wording back to TEITAC committee 18:15:38 AC: Good preamblr 18:15:51 JA: So... 18:16:13 JB: Should we look at the draft? 18:16:18 JA: OK 18:16:34 http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080312/#principle-operable 18:16:51 Guideline 4.1 18:17:20 SH: Reasonable intro of TEITAC discussion 18:17:33 discussion emails a) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html b)http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0053.html 18:17:47 oedipus has joined #ua 18:18:00 SH: In summary my issues are about scoping 18:18:26 q+ to ask on JB's point 2 if "electronic" means "online" and if so, shouldn't caching of such documents locally be a requirement? 18:19:08 JR: Clarifies timeline on those emails 18:19:41 GR: Just wanted to ask about electronic documentation 18:19:49 GR: Makes me think online documentation 18:20:16 JB: More than that...and other individual said could be on CDROM 18:20:33 JB: I'm ok as long as it is accessible electonically.... 18:20:40 JB: Not immediate access issue 18:20:55 GR: OK because if online...should be locally cached when refreshed 18:21:11 ack me 18:21:11 oedipus, you wanted to ask on JB's point 2 if "electronic" means "online" and if so, shouldn't caching of such documents locally be a requirement? 18:21:45 AC: Reading over principal 4.... 18:22:05 AC: Some comments ...when I look at 4... 18:22:19 AC: Ensure full keyboard access is too vague 18:22:30 AC: So can do all be keyboard... 18:22:37 AC: Also efficiency is vital 18:22:44 AC: Then that they all be discoverable 18:23:09 AC: Then reading note.... 18:23:23 AC: Should be careful about term "keyboard shortcuts" 18:23:35 AC: Should be thinking about general techniques ... 18:23:43 AC: Not about memorizing shortcuts 18:24:12 AC: More like conveying keyboard access, rather than shortcuts which is specific mechanism 18:24:17 JA: Thanks 18:24:28 JA: The guideline is short mnemonic thing... 18:24:29 q+ 18:24:44 JA: Meat of it is the success criteria 18:25:17 JA: @@'s are notes to ourselves 18:25:33 JB: Comment about termininology... 18:25:48 JB: Very useful to get better shorthand for discussing these things 18:26:06 JB: In TEITAC often got tripped up by saying "kyeaboard shortcuts" 18:26:28 JB: Generally don't like loits of specialized jargon but maybe useful here. 18:26:35 JB: Looking again.... 18:26:57 JB: Language you were wondering about is what's in our note... 18:27:24 SH: Issue/question on 4.1.1.... 18:27:36 SH: You have "operate all of the functions included in the user interface"... 18:27:57 SH: IN WCAG, TEITAC...all the functions that can be gotten at in the user interface,,,, 18:28:25 q- 18:28:49 SH: Not necessirliy clear 18:29:08 JR: Points out "This applies to at least one mechanism per "browsing outcome"@@DEFINE@@, allowing non-keyboard accessible mechanisms to remain available (e.g., providing resizing with mouse-"handles" and with keystrokes).@@" 18:29:15 JR: Agreed that it might not be clear 18:30:43 JA: Some things in 4.1....not necassirly things we have issues with... 18:31:01 JA: Looking at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JanMar/0052.html 18:31:38 AC: Anything about visual indicators 18:35:13 NOTE: Keyboard shortcut probably needs a definition that excludes 18:35:16 keyboard controls for sequential navigation (arrow keys, ENTER, TAB, etc.) 18:35:42 SH: In MS we have accelerator key...and then we have shortcut keys 18:36:14 q+ to suggest that we deliberately compile vocabulary and precise definitions in this area 18:36:20 SH: Accelerator key moves you faster to visible things...shortcut keys go to hiddent things..then there are keys to drive mouse etc 18:36:51 JB: I think we really need to collect relevant vocab 18:37:55 JR: Does someone have this already? 18:38:06 SH: MSDN might have something? 18:38:27 AC: Think it's really important to get crisp defintions 18:38:35 AC: All tend to blend together 18:39:38 JA: Gregory, with your linux work...if you could find terminilogy would be useful 18:39:58 KF: MacOS has same concepts, I'll have to go look 18:40:50 GR: Tried to get Apple into keyboard group 18:41:38 Action SH: Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN. 18:41:43 ACTION Gregory: Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility documents for terminology 18:42:40 action: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on discussion of keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc 18:43:22 GR: Just want to tell people that they can check minutes on mailing list archives 18:43:33 One example of MSDN on keyboards is http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms645526.aspx 18:43:47 GR: Also gives "minutes" URL 18:44:20 JA: Back to message... 18:44:34 (1) Visual Keyboard Shortcut Indicator ("Chrome"): Provide a user 18:44:36 setting in which currently visible user interface "chrome" components 18:44:37 visually indicated their keyboard shortcuts, IF ANY (e.g., with 18:44:39 accesskey letters underlined). 18:45:15 AC: So refers specifically to what keys are 18:46:22 AC: In FF, tabs have no indications 18:46:40 SH: So this one brings out issue clearly... 18:46:49 SH: In windows...press Alt... 18:47:24 SH: Brings up mode...Alt-F....moves focus but doesn't activate...but ctrl S 18:47:39 KF: But actually those actually do do something.... 18:48:02 SH: So yes distinguishing functionality versus operating the UI 18:48:37 JB: So if I hit alt key I get ....underlines first letter.... 18:48:45 JB: Then can visually scan.... 18:48:57 JB: But everything has visual indicator.... 18:49:11 JB: Good for someone with limited hand use... 18:49:45 KF: Alt just activates menu bar 18:51:29 JR: Alt shifts focus to menu bar, Alt-F, O activates 'open' 18:52:00 ... some keys move focus, others activate a control 18:52:32 SH: Yes...so only talking about indicators you can see 18:52:47 JB: One thing I worry about is "sequential" 18:53:22 SH: Think this is reasonable 18:53:51 SH: Thinks "IF ANY" is important...some items don't have any direct keyboard shortcuts 18:54:19 AC: By convention when on menu....up and down arrow keys provide a way to navigate in direction of arrow keys 18:54:38 SH: Nothing in UI that makes you know that arrows do something 18:54:42 SH: Implicit 18:54:52 JA: In windows when I do an alt-F... 18:55:11 JA: There are other actionable keys....O....to Open 18:55:31 JA: Think that's what JB is getting at 18:56:11 SH: IN IE , "favourites" list is dynamic so don't have accelerators 18:56:23 AC: But can use alphabetical keys 18:56:38 JA: Nuance there we need to try and capture 18:56:59 JA: Tool may provide efficient nav...but without indicator... 18:57:23 GR: You would also want to capture ability for user to resort 18:57:41 eg. to be able to alphabetize 18:58:04 KF: Yes can sort favourites but not allowed to sort items in other menus 18:58:45 JB: I don't really use IE...but... 18:58:54 JB: When I get to bookmark menu... 18:59:28 JB: I'm looking for tools tha tlet me organize, but also I'm more tolerant of sequential access since I "caused the mess" maybe? 19:00:28 GR: When using windows in classic mode, can have personalized menus...can also hide infrequentally used things 19:00:49 In some other tools can move things around in menus 19:01:02 AC: In office products it was easy to customize menus 19:01:11 AC: Grouping etc. 19:01:36 AC: Doing software customization ... avbility to remove unused items is very important 19:01:48 amen (plus 1) 19:02:18 SH: THere is still lots of customization in Office2007 19:02:40 JB: Higly discoverable customization important 19:02:51 JA: Need to jump in... 19:03:17 JA: Even though Judy and I won't be here next week...discussion should continue next week 19:03:38 KF: Discussion seems to have veered... 19:04:02 KF: Are we saying I should be able to specify chrome elements and layout of them? 19:04:10 GR: Yes 19:04:11 AC: Yes 19:04:27 AC: Logical end of fully customizable. 19:04:38 JR: Can chair next week. 19:05:09 JA: Very productive thanks 19:05:11 JB: Thanks 19:05:22 GR: Everything so interrelated 19:05:30 -Gregory_Rosmaita 19:05:32 -Cantor 19:05:33 -SeanH 19:05:35 -Allanj 19:05:35 -KFord 19:05:37 -Judy 19:05:38 -Jan 19:05:38 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:05:41 Attendees were KFord, Allanj, Jan, Judy, Cantor, Gregory_Rosmaita, SeanH 19:05:52 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:05:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-minutes.html Jan 19:06:02 RRSAgent, set logs public 19:06:10 Zakim, bye 19:06:10 Zakim has left #ua 19:06:22 RRSAgent, bye 19:06:22 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-actions.rdf : 19:06:22 ACTION: SH to Look up MS keyboard actions in MSDN. [1] 19:06:22 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-irc#T18-41-38 19:06:22 ACTION: Gregory to Review Linux Foundation/Open Accessibility documents for terminology [2] 19:06:22 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-irc#T18-41-43 19:06:22 ACTION: jb contact d michael & mb janes abt apple rep on discussion of keyboard interaction terminology, feasibility etc [3] 19:06:22 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/27-ua-irc#T18-42-40