W3C

Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

18 Mar 2008

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
francois, kemp, rob, hgerlach, MartinJ, SeanP, Magnus, Bryan_Sullivan, AndrewS
Regrets
Jo
Chair
francois
Scribe
rob

Contents


Reminder - actions

<hgerlach> where can I find the action summary/list?

francois: seen lots of actions being completed and inputs to the gaps coming in - thanks

<francois> List of CT actions

HTTPS rewrite (in §3.4)

<francois> Andrew's text proposal

francois: for today start with Andrew's contribution

<francois> Jo's adaptation of Andrew's text

rob: just want to ensure that the user must not have to be asked repeatedly if they want HTTPS adaptiong or not

kemp: doesn't explicitly state have to ask all the time

hgerlach: a cookie-like session persistence could work

<francois> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#sec-Proxy-Response

Bryan: the advice to the end-user can come out-of-band
... eg preferences set or terms accepted in advance

andrews: how can we "annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them"?
... the important thing is in the para above. Annotation is not required.

francois: Bryan, Rob, do you want to modify the "must advise" para?

bryan: no, I think the allowance for this advice being "out-of-band" is already implicit so does not need repetition here
... do need to recall that there is the need for someone like an e-wallet service provider to ban HTTPS re-writing on their domains and dis-allow transformation.

martin: "must provide the option to avoid transformation of the resources the links refer to" is only part of the story

<francois> ACTION: martin to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - martin

<trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. mharris2, mjones4)

<francois> ACTION: jones to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-717 - Propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and \"must provide the option to avoid transformation\" [on Martin Jones - due 2008-03-25].

martin: should it be "must provide the option to avoid interception and/or transformation of the resources the links refer to" or similar?

<andrews> I suggest that we remove this.

andrew: I suggest we remove the para on annotating links

<francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: remove "If the proxy has transformed (reformatted) the content but not rewritten https links, it should annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them."

<SeanP> OK with me to remove it\

<kemp> +1

+1

<SeanP> +1

<andrews> +1

<Martin1> +1

<francois> RESOLUTION: remove "If the proxy has transformed (reformatted) the content but not rewritten https links, it should annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them."

<francois> Close ACTION-633

<trackbot-ng> ACTION-633 Write a clear draft on @@allow-https-rewrite and the need for the end-user to be aware of the situation closed

no-transform and WAP gateways (in §1.2 and §3.2)

<francois> fd's text and replies

<francois> Scope ref

<francois> Server response ref

francois: in sec 1.2, re "disrupt delivery of WML"

<francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: given that the link "in some circumstances" is fixed, leave the text for ACTION-634 as it is in 1.2 and 3.2

<SeanP> +1

<hgerlach> +1

+1

<francois> RESOLUTION: given that the link "in some circumstances" is fixed, leave the text for ACTION-634 as it is in 1.2 and 3.2

Text for para 2 of 3.1.1 (ACTION-679)

<francois> Martin's text and replies

<francois> Close ACTION-634

<trackbot-ng> ACTION-634 Write a note to say something about Cache-Control: no-transform and WAP gateways closed

francois: there seems to be no way to tell if a request was from XMLHTTPRequest or from a link/URL in the page
... so there is no way for a CT-proxy to positively identify XMLHTTPRequests
... Is there a need to recommend what happens in AJAX scripts?

bryan: the intent of the app designer needs to be clear in the JavaScript implementation of the app
... eg the XMLHTTPRequest object has the facility to modify User-Agent

martin: that's probably safest and most reliable but how many AJAX apps are going to follow these rules?
... should we liase with Oen AJAX alliance?
... bryan: understand that the proxy vendors need space to innovate better solutions but it's worth making recommendations to the app designers

c/... bryan/bryan/

scribe: this recommendation belongs in BP2

<francois> ack q+

martin: if AJAX developers begin to put no-transform in routinely it may limit the amount CT-proxy providers can do?

francois: agree that Cache-Control: no-transform might just confuse everything further
... but recommending always decorating the User-Agent to show "I'm an app on top of the browser"

hgerlach: can we keep AJAX out-of-scope?
... ie CT-proxies are for legacy pages. Where does AJAX start and JavaScript stop?
... maybe we should specify minimum events and methods that should be supported?

francois: I think Martin's text for 3.1.1 is fine. Does anyone want to ammend this section?

<francois> Irrespective of the presence of the no-transform directive, the proxy must behave transparently (q.v.) unless it is able to determine positively that the user agent is a browser. The mechanism by which the proxy recognizes the user agent as a browser should use evidence from the HTTP request, in particular the user-agent and accept headers.

bryan: does the XHR object allow you to change User-Agent?

francois: yes, the API does though I've yet to test it
... I'd recommend leave 3.1.1 text as-is and recommend modifying User-Agent in another place?

bryan: I think a kind of sticky transformation is dangerous
... Windows Mobile had a split WAP1/WP2 stack that caused all kinds of trouble with WML URLs linking to HTML pages and vice-versa

francois: hasn't the question about how a CT-proxy knows it's already transformed the referrer page arisen already?

martin: yes, it already exists because the notion of a session with the client is so useful
... it's easier as a reverse-proxy of course
... My wording was about when the CT-proxy might transform, noth that it HAS to transform in these conditions

sean: Frequently JavaScript isn't passed down to the device because the device can't handle it

<SeanP> I'm OK with the text

<francois> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: keep Martin's text for 3.1.1 intact but continue discussion on Ajax/XHR requests and the like

<Martin1> +1

+1

<SeanP> +1

<francois> RESOLUTION: keep Martin's text for 3.1.1 intact but continue discussion on Ajax/XHR requests and the like

<francois> ACTION: daoust to summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-718 - Summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT [on François Daoust - due 2008-03-25].

<francois> Close ACTION-679

<trackbot-ng> ACTION-679 Propose text for para 2 of 3.1.1 closed

hgerlach: we need to speed this review up

francois: indeed, we should do more work on the mailing-list so there is less for the calls

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: daoust to summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: jones to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: martin to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2008/03/18 16:27:08 $