IRC log of bpwg on 2008-03-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:04 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-irc
14:57:06 [trackbot-ng]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:57:06 [Zakim]
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14:57:08 [trackbot-ng]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
14:57:08 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot-ng; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:09 [trackbot-ng]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
14:57:09 [trackbot-ng]
Date: 18 March 2008
14:57:15 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM has now started
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+ +1.519.880.aaaa
14:57:33 [kemp]
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14:58:23 [francois]
Chair: francois
14:58:44 [Magnus]
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Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0007.html
14:59:08 [francois]
Regrets: Jo
14:59:13 [francois]
zakim, code?
14:59:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), francois
14:59:54 [Zakim]
+francois
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-francois
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+francois
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15:00:28 [francois]
zakim, aaaa is kemp
15:00:48 [Zakim]
+kemp; got it
15:01:12 [Zakim]
+ +0207287aabb
15:01:24 [Zakim]
+ +049211aacc
15:01:27 [rob]
zakim, aabb is rob
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+rob; got it
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zakim, aacc is hgerlach
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+hgerlach; got it
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+ +0777613aadd
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15:02:22 [Martin1]
zakim, aadd is MartinJ
15:02:48 [Zakim]
+MartinJ; got it
15:03:11 [Magnus]
zakim, code?
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the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Magnus
15:03:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.630.414.aaee
15:04:00 [SeanP]
zakim, aaee is me
15:04:04 [Zakim]
+SeanP; got it
15:04:08 [Zakim]
+ +46.3.17.47.aaff
15:04:15 [Magnus]
zakim, +46 is me
15:04:16 [Zakim]
+Magnus; got it
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15:05:58 [francois]
ScribeNick: rob
15:06:00 [francois]
Scribe: rob
15:06:11 [francois]
Topic: Reminder - actions
15:06:48 [hgerlach]
where can I find the action summary/list?
15:06:52 [rob]
francois: seen lots of actions being completed and inputs to the gaps coming in - thanks
15:06:55 [francois]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 List of CT actions
15:07:23 [francois]
Topic: HTTPS rewrite (in §3.4)
15:07:31 [francois]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Feb/0026.html Andrew's text proposal
15:07:40 [rob]
... for today start with Andrew's contribution
15:07:58 [francois]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#sec-Proxy-Response Jo's adaptation of Andrew's text
15:08:56 [Bryan]
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+Bryan_Sullivan
15:10:34 [Zakim]
+ +0789972aagg
15:10:49 [andrews]
Zakim, aagg is andrews
15:10:49 [Zakim]
+andrews; got it
15:10:54 [kemp]
q+
15:11:02 [francois]
ack kemp
15:11:06 [rob]
rob: just want to ensure that the user must not have to be asked repeatedly if they want HTTPS adaptiong or not
15:11:44 [rob]
kemp: doesn't explicitly state have to ask all the time
15:12:09 [Bryan]
q+
15:12:25 [francois]
ack bryan
15:12:27 [rob]
hgerlach: a cookie-like session persistence could work
15:12:55 [francois]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#sec-Proxy-Response
15:13:52 [rob]
Bryan: the advice to the end-used can come out-of-band
15:14:13 [rob]
s/end-used/end-user/
15:15:03 [rob]
... eg preferences set or terms accepted in advance
15:15:53 [rob]
andrews: how can we "annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them"?
15:16:30 [rob]
... the important thing is in the para above. Annotation is not required.
15:16:36 [Bryan]
q+
15:16:39 [francois]
ack bryan
15:17:07 [rob]
francois: Bryan, Rob, do you want to modify the "must advise" para?
15:17:53 [rob]
bryan: no, I think the allowance for this advice being "out-of-band" is already implicit so does not need repetition here
15:19:29 [rob]
... do need to recall that there is the need for someone like an e-wallet service provider to ban HTTPS re-writing on their domains and dis-allow transformation.
15:19:36 [Martin1]
q+
15:20:49 [francois]
ack martin
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15:21:58 [rob]
martin: "must provide the option to avoid transformation of the resources the links refer to" is only part of the story
15:22:42 [francois]
ACTION: martin to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation"
15:22:42 [trackbot-ng]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - martin
15:22:42 [trackbot-ng]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. mharris2, mjones4)
15:22:51 [francois]
ACTION: jones to propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and "must provide the option to avoid transformation"
15:22:51 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-717 - Propose some alternate text for HTTPs rewrite and \"must provide the option to avoid transformation\" [on Martin Jones - due 2008-03-25].
15:22:57 [rob]
... should it be "must provide the option to avoid interception and/or transformation of the resources the links refer to" or similar?
15:23:36 [andrews]
I suggest that we remove this.
15:24:18 [rob]
andrew: I suggest we remove the para on annotating links
15:24:52 [francois]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: remove "If the proxy has transformed (reformatted) the content but not rewritten https links, it should annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them."
15:24:53 [SeanP]
OK with me to remove it\
15:25:01 [kemp]
+1
15:25:04 [rob]
+1
15:25:04 [SeanP]
+1
15:25:16 [andrews]
+1
15:25:18 [Martin1]
+1
15:25:22 [francois]
RESOLUTION: remove "If the proxy has transformed (reformatted) the content but not rewritten https links, it should annotate those links to indicate that transformation service is not available on them."
15:25:34 [francois]
Close ACTION-633
15:25:34 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-633 Write a clear draft on @@allow-https-rewrite and the need for the end-user to be aware of the situation closed
15:25:43 [francois]
Topic: no-transform and WAP gateways (in §1.2 and §3.2)
15:25:53 [francois]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Feb/0011.html fd's text and replies
15:26:19 [francois]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#d0e117 Scope ref
15:27:12 [francois]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/080313#sec-ServerResponse Server response ref
15:28:40 [rob]
francois: in sec 1.2, re "disrupt delivery of WML"
15:28:47 [francois]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: given that the link "in some circumstances" is fixed, leave the text for ACTION-634 as it is in 1.2 and 3.2
15:29:03 [SeanP]
+1
15:29:08 [hgerlach]
+1
15:29:10 [rob]
+1
15:29:23 [francois]
RESOLUTION: given that the link "in some circumstances" is fixed, leave the text for ACTION-634 as it is in 1.2 and 3.2
15:29:30 [francois]
Topic: Text for para 2 of 3.1.1 (ACTION-679)
15:29:39 [francois]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Mar/0008.html Martin's text and replies
15:29:43 [francois]
Close ACTION-634
15:29:43 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-634 Write a note to say something about Cache-Control: no-transform and WAP gateways closed
15:30:48 [Zakim]
-Magnus
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15:31:12 [hgerlach]
q+
15:31:37 [rob]
francois: there seems to be no way to tell if a request was from XMLHTTPRequest or from a link/URL in the page
15:32:37 [rob]
... so there is no way for a CT-proxy to positively identify XMLHTTPRequests
15:33:26 [Bryan]
q+
15:33:43 [hgerlach]
q-
15:33:52 [rob]
... Is there a need to recommend what happens in AJAX scripts?
15:33:58 [francois]
ack bryan
15:34:27 [Martin1]
q+
15:34:46 [rob]
bryan: the intent of the app designer needs to be clear in the JavaScript implementation of the app
15:35:44 [rob]
... eg the XMLHTTPRequest object has the facility to modify User-Agent
15:36:11 [francois]
ack martin
15:36:57 [rob]
martin: that's probably safest and most reliable but how many AJAX apps are going to follow these rules?
15:37:03 [Bryan]
q+
15:37:21 [rob]
... should we liase with Oen AJAX alliance?
15:38:59 [Zakim]
-hgerlach
15:39:07 [francois]
ack bryan
15:39:33 [Zakim]
+hgerlach
15:40:34 [rob]
... bryan: understand that the proxy vendors need space to innovate better solutions but it's worth making recommendations to the app designers
15:41:06 [rob]
c/... bryan/bryan/
15:41:15 [Martin1]
q+
15:41:46 [hgerlach]
q+q+
15:41:51 [francois]
ack martin
15:41:52 [rob]
... this recommendation belongs in BP2
15:42:03 [francois]
q+ hgerlach
15:42:07 [francois]
ack q+
15:43:02 [rob]
martin: if AJAX developers begin to put no-transform in routinely it may limit the amount CT-proxy providers can do?
15:44:06 [rob]
francois: agree that Cache-Control: no-transform might just confuse everything further
15:44:18 [francois]
ack hgerlach
15:44:39 [rob]
... but recommending always decorating the User-Agent to show "I'm an app on top of the browser"
15:45:01 [rob]
hgerlach: can we keep AJAX out-of-scope?
15:45:55 [rob]
... ie CT-proxies are for legacy pages. Where does AJAX start and JavaScript stop?
15:46:50 [rob]
... maybe we should specify minimum events and methods that should be supported?
15:47:10 [DKA]
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15:47:56 [rob]
francois: I think Martin's text for 3.1.1 is fine. Does anyone want to ammend this section?
15:48:17 [francois]
Irrespective of the presence of the no-transform directive, the proxy must behave transparently (q.v.) unless it is able to determine positively that the user agent is a browser. The mechanism by which the proxy recognizes the user agent as a browser should use evidence from the HTTP request, in particular the user-agent and accept headers.
15:48:50 [Bryan]
q+
15:49:13 [francois]
ack Bryan
15:49:50 [rob]
bryan: does the XHR object allow you to change User-Agent?
15:50:09 [rob]
francois: yes, the API does though I've yet to test it
15:52:36 [rob]
... I'd recommend leave 3.1.1 text as-is and recommend modifying User-Agent in another place?
15:52:50 [Bryan]
q+
15:53:21 [rob]
bryan: I think a kind of sticky transformation is dangerous
15:54:19 [rob]
... Windows Mobile had a split WAP1/WP2 stack that caused all kinds of trouble with WML URLs linking to HTML pages and vice-versa
15:55:18 [Martin1]
q+
15:55:21 [francois]
ack Bryan
15:55:26 [rob]
francois: hasn't the question about how a CT-proxy knows it's already transformed the referrer page arisen already?
15:55:30 [francois]
ack Martin1
15:55:42 [Zakim]
-kemp
15:56:06 [rob]
martin: yes, it already exists because the notion of a session with the client is so useful
15:56:17 [SeanP]
q+
15:56:27 [rob]
... it's easier as a reverse-proxy of course
15:56:27 [francois]
ack Mar
15:57:30 [francois]
ack SeanP
15:57:30 [rob]
... My wording was about when the CT-proxy might transform, noth that it HAS to transform in these conditions
15:58:37 [rob]
sean: Frequently JavaScript isn't passed down to the device because the device can't handle it
15:58:41 [SeanP]
I'm OK with the text
15:59:18 [francois]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: keep Martin's text for 3.1.1 intact but continue discussion on Ajax/XHR requests and the like
15:59:25 [Martin1]
+1
15:59:25 [rob]
+1
15:59:28 [SeanP]
+1
16:00:05 [francois]
RESOLUTION: keep Martin's text for 3.1.1 intact but continue discussion on Ajax/XHR requests and the like
16:00:25 [francois]
ACTION: daoust to summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT
16:00:25 [trackbot-ng]
Created ACTION-718 - Summarize and continue discussion re Ajax/XHR requests and CT [on François Daoust - due 2008-03-25].
16:00:42 [francois]
Close ACTION-679
16:00:43 [trackbot-ng]
ACTION-679 Propose text for para 2 of 3.1.1 closed
16:01:19 [rob]
hgerlach: we need to speed this review up
16:01:20 [DKA]
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16:01:51 [rob]
francois: indeed, we should do more work on the mailing-list so there is less for the calls
16:01:59 [Zakim]
-Bryan_Sullivan
16:02:00 [Zakim]
-hgerlach
16:02:04 [Zakim]
-SeanP
16:02:10 [hgerlach]
bye
16:02:14 [Zakim]
-francois
16:02:16 [hgerlach]
-hgerlach
16:02:16 [Zakim]
-rob
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Martin1 has left #bpwg
16:02:29 [Zakim]
-andrews
16:02:42 [Zakim]
-MartinJ
16:02:44 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG(CTTF)11:00AM has ended
16:02:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.519.880.aaaa, francois, kemp, +0207287aabb, +049211aacc, rob, hgerlach, +0777613aadd, MartinJ, +1.630.414.aaee, SeanP, +46.3.17.47.aaff, Magnus, Bryan_Sullivan,
16:02:47 [Zakim]
... +0789972aagg, andrews
16:03:20 [Bryan]
Francois, just speeding things up will not result in quality.... we need to ensure that things are discussed to the extent necessary
16:04:52 [francois]
I agree with you Bryan. I don't think we should speed up discussions, rather try to shift some of them to the mailing-list
16:05:10 [francois]
so that the ideas are already written somewhere...
16:05:14 [Bryan]
Thats fine as well
16:05:16 [francois]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:05:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/03/18-bpwg-minutes.html francois
16:05:23 [Bryan]
bye
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