See also: IRC log
<scribe> Scribe: Steven
Rich: I see that ODF 1.2 will be using RDFa
Steven: I heard that they are
changing some of the attribute names
... but that is not yet final
Roland: Well then they aren't using RDFa then
Steven: Well, they are, but with
a differen syntax :-)
... I think they are inporting the attributes into their own namespace
Roland: Does the current spec allow this?
Steven: Yes, I think all our modules are chameleon; it is the driver that adds the namespace
Roland: I think this is good. It may help clean up some of the namespace mess
Steven: I announced the RDFa last
call at HCG last Friday. The dates were announced as 6 weeks
ending April 4, but that means starting 22 Feb, which I am not
sure we will hit.
... I see a new, potentially final pre-last call draft was published this weekend
... so there is still a reasonable chance to get it out this Friday
... The problem with the spec is that it is for implementors and not authors
Roland: What we really need is an
RDFa cookbook, that gives lots of examples that you can just
Steven: Which examples do you think are needed?
Roland: Geo coding, people, ...
Roland: W3C should be doing this
much more centrally organised
... and host the namespaces and so on
Steven: We got the OK on the dates at the HCG meeting
Steven: The current draft that is
up is 22 Jan, so the last changes have not been made
... I know Shane has been having trouble uploading to the W3 site
Roland: So we are OK to go?
Steven: HCG has OKd it, we can publish asap
Roland: So we just need Shane to upload the draft
<scribe> ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
<scribe> ACTION: Steven to Draft last call announcement [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]
Roland: We are ready to go to
second last call
... but I wonder if we should let it wait a bit so that it runs behind CURIEs, which depend on it
Rich: In ARIA some of the
standard roles in the Roles spec like note and definition, they
are a subclass of 'region'
... and I would not do that
Rich: I could tweak the examples
in the appendix to fix that
... Why are things in orange?
Steven: [laughs] That is for all
SHOULDs and MUSTs
... CSS style
Roland: But we don't say that, we should
<scribe> ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]
Rich: Oh wait, I already did that change
Roland: We need a role cookbook as well
Rich: My change is in section C -
Rich: I have to say that the
taxonomy was one of the best pieces of work we (WAI) has
... since it allowed us to check correctness really easily
... OWL is a fantastic, and simple, tool for that
Roland: Such taxonomies should be
dereferencable via a URI, and not just an appendix of a
... so appendix C should be a separate document that people can download
Steven: Does OWL have a Media Type?
Steven: Why is that? Oh I see, it
is just RDF/XML
... Maybe an interesting experiment to represent OWL in RDFa
... We need to decide on dates for second last call
Roland: So we publish CURIEs
tomorrow, let's say, done 18 March
... and look at a role last call starting 18 March
... unless we have a lot of CURIE push back
... we should try to avoid a third last call!
<Roland_> one last role issue from Shane : http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xhtml2-issues?findid=8001
Steven: So he wants the roles to
be machine discoverable
... which is a good idea
... it seems like a good opportunity to use RDFa:
... when you go to the URL you get an XHTML document that is readable for the human, explaining the values
... but is also machine readable for UAs
... You do want UAs to be extensible for new role values
... otherwise new role adoption would be very slow
Rich: But it may be in the
middleware where the presentation of the role is made
... it may not make it down to the UA
Steven: But from the user's perspective middleware is just part of the UA
Rich: We don't have a method at
present of specifying priorities of roles
... there is no semantic information that says that secondary is of lower priority to primary
... at least with RDF you can always update it later
Steven: I don;t think we disagree with his points here
Rich: No not at all
... though I doubt you can specify the end rendering
... So how should we respond to him? Firstly create a URI to the roles
... the OWL document
... Steven could do an RDFa version
Steven: This is a problem with OWL not having a media type: you can't use content negotiation to specify that you only want the OWL version
Roland: So should we make it a
SHOULD or a MUST that people make dereferencable definitions of
their role values?
... Is it fair not to specify which representation of RDF is required?
... otherwise the UA must be able to handle all sorts of serializations
... RDF/XML, OWL, RDFa
Steven: Triples, Turltle...
... But it's not nice to exclude future possible representations of RDF either
Roland: It is a problem for interoperability though
Steven: We need to specify the exact algorithm to get to the machine readable definitions
Roland: Where do we specify the 'vocab' bit of our role namespace
Steven: Section 3
[Discussion of problems with IE's CSS and namespaced values]
RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary
Roland: and one of the available RDF representations SHOULD be RDF/XML
RESOLUTION: The creator of a role vocabulary SHOULD make a derefencable machine-readable definition of the vocabulary and one of the available representations SHOULD be RDF/XML.
Roland: Going back to the issue we are discussing
STeven: We can't do the primary/secondary importance at present
Roland: That is being considered by UWA at present
Steven: So we could say that that is work in progress at the moment
Rich: It is beyond the scope of this release of role
Steven: So who's going to reply?
<scribe> ACTION: Roland to reply to issue 8001 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action04]
Steven: Here is an icomplete implementation report, that needs some details filling in; maybe we can do it on the fly:
Yam: I believe that Openwave has
an implementation, but I am not sure
... Netfront definitely has
Steven: So what do we do? Wait for a second implementation, or argue that it is a hint, and therefore any implementation conforms
Roland: So when will OMA XHTML MP 1.2 be ratified?
Yam: Soon, it is in CR now
Steven: With inputmode?
Yam: Inputmode is in MP 1.3
Steven: The third option is to drop inputmode
Roland: If OMA is happy with only one, if we could get MWI's statement that they are happy with one implementation, then we could move forward that way
Steven: So we go with option 1.
Yam: So you have to contact Mike Smith
Steven: I will try and contact Mike Smith, but he is in Tokyo, so it is a bit late now
Steven: I see CSS has published a last call on namespaces in CSS
Steven: We should review it
[ADJOURN for lunch]
<scribe> ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action05]
About to reconvene
<ShaneM> /whois r*
<ShaneM> hi - alarm malfunction
I didn't know you could wildcard whois Shane
We've already done quite a lot
see the minutes
What is the prob with the W3C site Shane?
<ShaneM> the "2008" folder fell out of my jigedit tree again
but you did fix it the first time?
<ShaneM> they fixed it on weds. broke on fri or sat.
Do you know what caused it?
<ShaneM> not a clue. just went away. dont let me distract from the meeting tho plz. I will work this in parallel
we're just restarting after lunch
We are in a beautiful old Venetian Palace
with a view on the canal
It was a little chilly this morning, but we have the sun on our backs now
Want to skype shane?
<oedipus> GJR: good afternoon/morning/[your time of day here]!; will be participating in this session in a minute -- going over the IRC log and minutes
<alessio> hi shane, gregory
<oedipus> steven, i hope i didn't muck things up by trying to fix the datestamp on the wiki!
<oedipus> aloha, alessio -- it's good to hear you, but i wish i were doing so in person (and with a speech synthesizer)!
No Gregory, I hadn't noticed
was that that it said 2007 instead of 2008?
<oedipus> yeah - the files themselves were datestamped 2007 so i set redirects to the same content with a 2008 datestamp
<alessio> I know gregory...
good work; we wondered who had done that, but were glad
<oedipus> just glad i didn't screw things up -- and VERY glad that the wiki is a mediawiki
Roland: So at the last FtF we decided that since there is now HTML5 we can be more radical and achieve more advantages to meet our aims
Rich: UWA are trying to do the same things. Maybe we can pool
Roland: I suggest we focus on the
markup side of what gets authored
... UWA focusses on adaptation
... but we need to make sure they gel
... but there is a good separation of work
Yam: I have two views
... XHTML2 is far more new generation markup
... but lessons from the past: we need to work faster
... and changing path now might make more volatility
... XHTML1 is more conservative than HTML5 in some respects
... in M12N we don't specify semantics, leaving HTML4 to specify the semantics
... we need to cut and paste the semantics somewhere, and decalre HTML4 is the past
... we can use some parts of HTML5, such as <section>
... with existing browsers we can easily represent XHTML2
Steven: Well, the semantics
*have* already been moved to the XHTML2 spec
... I've never really understood the objections to XHTML2, since it pretty much all can be done in existing browsers already
... my conclusion is that namespaces are the root of the complaints
Yam: I just don't understand why people have problems with namespaces. You really need them, and they are an underpinning of W3C
Steven: I think in the end that HTML5 will discover that they need something like namespaces anyway, even if they call it something else
Roland: We need to find a way to make authoring with namespaces easy
<ShaneM> The problem with namespaces is the ability to arbitrarily change prefixes throughout a document stream. Overengineered. You just need the ability to establish a prefix binding for scoping.
Roland: Maybe we could move everything into a single namespace
Yam: I don't really see the problem
Roland: Our design should minimise the need for namespaces in authoring
Yam: We need to make XHTML2 real as soon as possible
Steven: There is an open source
... we could expand that to do the rest of XHTML2, so it would work in browsers now
Roland: So what is it that we are doing new?
Steven: Device independence,
<oedipus> GJR: plus 1 to Roland's "move everything into a single namespace"
Alessio: If you want video or audio, you should use SMIL content for that
Roland: If I want to compose different content from different languages I should be able to.
<oedipus> GJR: SMIL Timesheets - a good model offering user-end control a l� stylesheets; role for OBJECT also good idea rather than VIDEO, AUDIO, etc.
Alessio: I strongly believe that we should use CML markup to represent the blocks that are combined in a page
Steven: What you want to do for documents ROland is what modularisation does for languages
... you want to compose documents from document blocks
Steven: This is why all elements
have a src attribute
... to allow you to import that content, but if the link fails or media type doesn't match, you still have some content
Roland: I think the content should be able to be changed on the fly, at runtime
[discussion of widgets, and their definition]
Yam: What is the difference between widget and application?
Yam: From my point of view, it's all applications
Roland: I think it's just terminology
<oedipus> GJR: that's why we need the semiotic web, not just the semantic web!
Roland: it is independently
written, it publishes its events, and defines what it will do
in the page context
... One of the current problems with 'widgets' is the security issue
... We should address that
... people like openajax are working on it
<oedipus> GJR: notes that PF just dealt with a potential scripting trojan horse delivery method by removing aria's secret property, due to possibility of author abuse
Roland: but we need to mark the security boundaries in documents
Alessio: Aggregation of documents is very important, thart HTML5 is missing
Steven: Part of the problem is that they didn't design composability into XML, look at unique IDs
Roland: When XML Schema started I asked for an 'XML Document' datatype, and they said "We can't do that"
<oedipus> roland, who said "we can't do that"?
Gregory, XML doesn't allow composition of documents; it was the schema WG who said that
<oedipus> thanks for the clarification -- that's what i concluded, but wanted to be sure
Roland: We need to define event boundaries when including other 'applications' using src on an element
Yam: We definitely need some guidelines
Roland: It may depend on
particular events, some may be allowed to go over
... and some not
<ShaneM> Have you considered http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/
Roland: Google maps sends events into the containing page
<gshults> Gerrie Shults here. What phone # and code do I call?
<gshults> OK. It'll take me some time to get Skype installed and configured
sorry about that Gerrie
<gshults> Some things just can't be helped/avoided.
<oedipus> q cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/#security"
<oedipus> "Application authors should be aware that content retrieved from another site is not itself trustable. Authors should protect themselves against cross-site scripting attacks by not rendering or executing the retrieved content directly without validating that content. Authors sharing content with domains that are on shared hosting environments should ensure to not allow access from arbitrary ports on those domains."
<yamx> Thank you for the reference.
Roland: So one of the core issues
we should deal with is composition
... And make sure that composite objects are first class citizens, with security, events, etc all taken care of
... we need to work with other groups, and we take care of the markup bit
... Many of the security problems are the fault of security experts being unable to explain the issues to the outside world
... people we need to work with iunclude UWA, Web API, Security
<Roland_> Web Security Context Working Group -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/wsc-charter
Roland: Are there any other issues we need to address in XHTML2?
<ShaneM> I think we need to publish an updated draft RIGHT NOW. how can we do that?
Steven: We have been waiting for RDFa, role to be ready to plug them all together
Roland: Should we be creating legacy modules?
<scribe> ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action06]
<ShaneM> feel free to comment on the editors draft. its current.
Steven: The question of new modules relates rather to M12N V2
<oedipus> shane, ok - that's what i was checking over the weekend - i should check the issues list before posting anything, though...
Rich: Then there is the naming problem
<markbirbeck> I have to make still more changes to the RDFa syntax document :( so can't join yet.
Alessio: XHTML2 SP1
<markbirbeck> But...can't we produce a modularised version of XHTML 2 using the current M12N?
<markbirbeck> Would give XHTML 2 a little momentum if it was simply a set of modules/extensions to XHTML 1.1.
<ShaneM> no you cannot
<oedipus> GJR: what would give XHTML2 momentum would be to go to TR before HTML5
<ShaneM> I dont htink you all can hear me on skype... steven can you check your mute or whatever?
Shane: ... crackle... splut...
Now you realise Mark???
<ShaneM> I will figure it put
<ShaneM> I will stop call and calibrate microphone
we will stop to get a coffee
Jersey??? What are you doing there?
<oedipus> er, new jersey, not the isle of...
<oedipus> but i consider myself a jerseyman above all else!
Shane: A question
... we should put a draft out of XHTML2 now, and we could do a M12n 2 at any time we wanted
Roland: Will we be able to mix and match M12N2 and M12N 1.1 modules?
Shane: No real need since every module in 1.1 is also in 2.0
Roland: Can we use the headers module from 1.1 for instance
Shane: There isn't one, the text module is rather large in 1.1
<gshults> How do I call in with Skype?
Steven: Just got a reply from Mike Smith that he is OK with us moving forward with one implementation
Shane: What are the three things
we have to do right now to get out a new XHTML2 WD?
... What is new: rdfa stuff, which is out of synch
Steven: But we can point to the
RDFa spec now
... like we do with XForms
Roland: And there is CURIEs and role
Shane: Not sure we can do it with
... because it is an M12N 1.1 module
Steven: But XForms is modularised
at all (yet)
... The syntax is trivial
... we refer to RDFa for the semantics
Roland: Access is in XHTML2 as
... so we can refer to those too
Roland: So sections 23 and 24 can largely be deleted
Steven: And PLEASE let us drop the style attribute
<oedipus> 23 and 24 are the 2 metadata sections, right?
Roland: We can move them to legacy modules
Shane: I think it is worth keeping the style attribute
<oedipus> GJR: style as in 29, not 28? or both?
Shane: One of the reasons we have
everything inline was to make a readable document.
... where everything was defined in place
... I don't mind if we drop that requirement
<oedipus> GJR: would be willing to give up 28 (which is really inline style declarations as substitue for FONT), but not 29
I agree Gregory, but there is no consensus here I am afraid
<oedipus> well, count me as plus one to deleting 28 and retaining 29
Yes, we are talking about 28, not 29
<oedipus> section 28 is perilously close to HTML5's "Presentational markup" - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#presentational
<ShaneM> basically we want to chnage section 4 so that some items are now outside the document - then remove the relevant sections.
Roland: Going back to headings and legacy
Steven: Well I think they are two different things. Firstly we need to decide what is in XHTML2, and secondly we need to decide what is M12N v2
Shane: But creating an h1-6 legacy module is fine
Steven: All *HTML* (where the *s are wildcards) should be in a module somewhere
Roland: Is there an M12N v2 document yet?
Shane: no, only in the source tree
Roland: Is there anything else at this stage that needs to go into XHTML2?
Steven: Don't think so
Roland: Why isn't iframe in XHTML2?
Steven: Because everything you can do with iframe you can do with object
Alessio: but object allows fallback
Rich: We should create a taxonomy for all elements like we did for ARIA
Roland: There is a question of familiarity
<oedipus> GJR: i may be mistaken, but with widgets and "Web 2.0" apps, framesets are far less common then they once were...
Gregory, the question was about iframe rather than framesets
but yes, it is true
partly also because the design of framesets is so bad
<oedipus> ah, well, what used to be in IFRAME is increasingly stuffed into a proprietary mime-type
<oedipus> GJR: such as flash, etc.
yes, and using DOM manipulation
<oedipus> GJR: i am in agreement with StevenP and Alessio -- object rather than iframe should be the way to move forward
Roland: I would like to adopt the "sub URIs visible in the top-level URI" feature of XFrames into XHTML2 as a whole
Rich: I agree in simplification (reducing the elements in the language)
Yam: Drop the name Frame
Steven: Yes, maybe it sends the wrong message
Roland: XML Events 2
<yamx> Thank you, Shane, for reference.
Roland: and its relationship to XBL(2)
We are cold, need to adjourn
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.133 of Date: 2008/01/18 18:48:51 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/TH/Th/ Succeeded: s/ST/St/ Succeeded: s/Type/Type?/ Succeeded: s/experiemtn/experiment/ Succeeded: s/toins/tions/ Succeeded: s/available RDF/available/ Succeeded: s/jary/ary/ FAILED: s/RORo// Succeeded: s/RO/Ro/ Succeeded: s/with/with / Succeeded: s/WHen/When/ Succeeded: s/tq/t/ Succeeded: s/SH/Sh/ Succeeded: s/There are/What are the/ Succeeded: s/WD/WD?/ Succeeded: s/XFO/XFo/ Succeeded: s/section 29/section 28/ Succeeded: s/kd/ld/ Succeeded: s/suc/duc/ Succeeded: s/TO/To/ Found Scribe: Steven Inferring ScribeNick: Steven Present: Rich Roland Steven Yam Alessio Shane Gregory Gerrie Regrets: Tina Mark Got date from IRC log name: 18 Feb 2008 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html People with action items: roland shane steven[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]