13:26:35 ... with existing browsers we can easily represent XHTML2 13:27:01 Steven: Well, the semantics *have* already been moved to the XHTML2 spec 13:28:55 ... I've never really understood the objections to XHTML2, since it pretty much all can be done in existing browsers already 13:29:17 ... my conclusion is that namespaces are the root of the complaints 13:29:53 Yam: I just don't understand why people have problems with namespaces. You really need them, and they are an underpinning of W3C 13:30:26 Steven: I think in the end that HTML5 will discover that they need something like namespaces anyway, even if they call it something else 13:30:48 Roland: We need to find a way to make authoring with namespaces easy 13:30:50 The problem with namespaces is the ability to arbitrarily change prefixes throughout a document stream. Overengineered. You just need the ability to establish a prefix binding for scoping. 13:32:05 Roland: Maybe we could move everything into a single namespace 13:32:23 Yam: I don't really see the problem 13:34:09 Roland: Our design should minimise the need for namespaces in authoring 13:35:40 Yam: We need to make XHTML2 real as soon as possible 13:35:53 Steven: There is an open source javascript library for XForms 13:36:14 ... we could expand that to do the rest of XHTML2, so it would work in browsers now 13:38:02 Roland: So what is it that we are doing new? 13:38:29 Steven: Device independence, accessibility, internationalisation 13:38:36 ... authoring 13:39:54 GJR: plus 1 to Roland's "move everything into a single namespace" 13:40:56 Alessio: If you want video or audio, you should use SMIL content for that 13:44:06 Roland: If I want to compose different content from different languages I should be able to. 13:44:25 GJR: SMIL Timesheets - a good model offering user-end control a l� stylesheets; role for OBJECT also good idea rather than VIDEO, AUDIO, etc. 13:46:08 Alessio: I strongly believe that we should use CML markup to represent the blocks that are combined in a page 13:47:34 Steven: What you want to do for documents ROland is what modularisation does for languages 13:47:35 Roland: Yes 13:47:48 ... you want to compose documents from document blocks 13:47:56 ... 'islands' 13:48:09 s/RORo/ 13:48:15 s/RO/Ro/ 13:51:31 Steven: This is why all elements have a src attribute 13:51:58 ... to allow you to import that content, but if the link fails or media type doesn't match, you still have some content 13:52:18 Roland: I think the content should be able to be changed on the fly, at runtime 13:53:05 [discussion of widgets, and their definition] 13:53:21 Yam: What is the difference between widget and application? 13:53:33 Alessio: none 13:53:51 Yam: From my point of view, it's all applications 13:54:07 Roland: I think it's just terminology 13:54:27 GJR: that's why we need the semiotic web, not just the semantic web! 13:54:41 ... it is independently written, it publishes its events, and defines what it will do in the page context 13:56:32 Roland: One of the current problems with'widgets' is the security issue 13:56:42 s/with/with / 13:56:56 Roland: We should address that 13:57:24 ... people like openajax are working on it 13:57:43 GJR: notes that PF just dealt with a potential scripting trojan horse delivery method by removing aria's secret property, due to possibility of author abuse 13:57:52 ... but we need to mark the security boundaries in documents 13:59:36 Alessio: Aggregation of documents is very important, thart HTML5 is missing 14:00:49 Steven: Part of the problem is that they didn't design composability into XML, look at unique IDs 14:01:20 Roland: WHen XML Schema started I asked for an 'XML Document' datatype, and they said "We can't do that" 14:02:09 roland, who said "we can't do that"? 14:03:09 Gregory, XML doesn't allow composition of documents; it was the schema WG who said that 14:03:29 thanks for the clarification -- that's what i concluded, but wanted to be sure 14:06:28 Roland: We need to define event boundaries when including other 'applications' using src on an element 14:06:38 Yam: We definitely need some guidelines 14:06:47 gshults has joined #xhtml 14:07:15 Roland: It may depend on particular events, some may be allowed to go over boundaries 14:07:20 ... and some not 14:07:32 Have you considered http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/ 14:07:52 ... Google maps sends events into the containing page 14:08:23 Gerrie Shults here. What phone # and code do I call? 14:10:00 OK. It'll take me some time to get Skype installed and configured 14:10:11 sorry about that Gerrie 14:10:40 Some things just can't be helped/avoided. 14:11:22 q cite="http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-access-control-20080214/#security" 14:11:22 "Application authors should be aware that content retrieved from another site is not itself trustable. Authors should protect themselves against cross-site scripting attacks by not rendering or executing the retrieved content directly without validating that content. Authors sharing content with domains that are on shared hosting environments should ensure to not allow access from arbitrary ports on those domains." 14:14:06 Thank you for the reference. 14:17:42 Roland: So one of the core issues we should deal with is composition 14:18:14 s/WHen/When/ 14:20:32 Roland: And make sure that composite objects are first class citizens, with security, events, etc all taken care of 14:20:39 ... we need to work with other groups, and we tqake care of the markup bit 14:20:47 s/tq/t/ 14:22:16 Roland: Many of the security problems are the fault of security experts being unable to explain the issues to the outside world 14:22:44 ... people we need to work with iunclude UWA, Web API, Security 14:24:26 Web Security Context Working Group -- http://www.w3.org/2005/Security/wsc-charter 14:26:59 Roland: Are there any other issues we need to address in XHTML2? 14:27:31 I think we need to publish an updated draft RIGHT NOW. how can we do that? 14:27:46 Steven: We have been waiting for RDFa, role to be ready to plug them all together 14:27:56 markbirbeck has joined #xhtml 14:29:00 Roland: Should we be creating legacy modules? 14:30:02 ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2 14:30:47 feel free to comment on the editors draft. its current. 14:30:49 Steven: The question of new modules relates rather to M12N V2 14:31:25 shane, ok - that's what i was checking over the weekend - i should check the issues list before posting anything, though... 14:32:26 Rich: Then there is the naming problem 14:32:37 I have to make still more changes to the RDFa syntax document :( so can't join yet. 14:32:38 Alessio: XHTML2 SP1 14:33:10 But...can't we produce a modularised version of XHTML 2 using the current M12N? 14:33:39 Would give XHTML 2 a little momentum if it was simply a set of modules/extensions to XHTML 1.1. 14:33:41 no you cannot 14:34:21 GJR: what would give XHTML2 momentum would be to go to TR before HTML5 14:34:26 I dont htink you all can hear me on skype... steven can you check your mute or whatever? 14:35:23 SHane: ... crackle... splut... 14:35:27 s/SH/Sh/ 14:35:40 Now you realise Mark??? 14:35:42 I will figure it put 14:36:02 I will stop call and calibrate microphone 14:36:30 we will stop to get a coffee 14:37:00 Jersey??? What are you doing there? 14:37:24 er, new jersey, not the isle of... 14:37:28 ah! 14:37:38 but i consider myself a jerseyman above all else! 14:38:56 Shane: A question 14:39:23 ... we should put a draft out of XHTML2 now, and we could do a M12n 2 at any time we wanted 14:39:50 Roland: Will we be able to mix and match M12N2 and M12N 1.1 modules? 14:40:07 Shane: No real need since every module in 1.1 is also in 2.0 14:40:40 yamx has joined #xhtml 14:42:11 Roland: Can we use the headers module from 1.1 for instance 14:42:37 Shane: There isn't one, the text module is rather large in 1.1 14:42:44 How do I call in with Skype? 14:43:09 thx 14:43:10 lowercase 14:50:55 Steven: Just got a reply from Mike Smith that he is OK with us moving forward with one implementation 14:59:25 Shane: There are three things we have to do right now to get out a new XHTML2 WD 15:00:30 s/There are/What are the/ 15:00:33 s/WD/WD?/ 15:00:59 Shane: What is new: rdfa stuff, which is out of synch 15:01:08 Steven: But we can point to the RDFa spec now 15:01:17 ... like we do with XForms 15:01:28 Roland: And there is CURIEs and role 15:01:47 Shane: Not sure we can do it with RDFa 15:02:00 ... because it is an M12N 1.1 module 15:02:10 Steven: But XFOrms is modularised at all (yet) 15:02:24 s/XFO/XFo/ 15:02:37 Steven: The syntax is trivial 15:02:49 ... we refer to RDFa for the semantics 15:03:21 Roland: Access is in XHTML2 as well 15:03:31 ... so we can refer to those too 15:03:58 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-access.html#s_accessmodule 15:04:23 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/xhtml2-diff.html 15:06:20 Roland: So sections 23 and 24 can largely be deleted 15:07:52 Steven: And PLEASE let us drop the style attribute 15:08:02 23 and 24 are the 2 metadata sections, right? 15:08:13 Roland: We can move them to legacy modules 15:09:08 Shane: I think it is worth keeping the style attribute 15:10:58 GJR: style as in 29, not 28? or both? 15:11:20 Shane: One of the reasons we have everything inline was to make a readable document. 15:11:40 ... where everything was defined in place 15:12:22 ... I don't mind if we drop that requirement 15:12:40 GJR: would be willing to give up 28 (which is really inline style declarations as substitue for FONT), but not 29 15:13:05 I agree Gregory, but there is no consensus here I am afraid 15:13:25 well, count me as plus one to deleting 28 and retaining 29 15:13:29 Yes, we are talking about 28, not 29 15:14:22 section 29 is perilously close to HTML5's "Presentational markup" - http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/#presentational 15:14:26 basically we want to chnage section 4 so that some items are now outside the document - then remove the relevant sections. 15:14:40 s/section 29/section 28/ 15:17:09 Roland: Going back to headings and legacy 15:19:29 Steven: Well I think they are two different things. Firstly we need to decide what is in XHTML2, and secondly we need to decide what is M12N v2 15:19:35 yamx0 has joined #xhtml 15:19:36 Shane: But creating an h1-6 legacy module is fine 15:19:41 yamx has joined #xhtml 15:19:46 Steven: All *HTML* (where the *s are wildcards) shoukd be in a module somewhere 15:22:51 yamx has joined #xhtml 15:24:28 s/kd/ld/ 15:24:47 Roland: Is there an M12N v2 document yet? 15:24:51 Shane: no, only in the source tree 15:25:27 Roland: Is there anything else at this stage that needs to go into XHTML2? 15:25:31 Steven: Don't think so 15:25:33 Topic: XFrames 15:25:47 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xframes 15:25:53 Roland: Why isn't iframe in XHTML2? 15:25:57 Steven: Because everything you can do with iframe you can do with object 15:28:04 Alessio: but object allows fallback 15:28:55 Rich: We should create a taxonomy for all elements like we did for ARIA 15:29:20 Roland: There is a question of familiarity 15:30:04 GJR: i may be mistaken, but with widgets and "Web 2.0" apps, framesets are far less common then they once were... 15:31:24 Gregory, the question was about iframe rather than framesets 15:31:42 but yes, it is true 15:31:53 partly also because the design of framesets is so bad 15:31:53 ah, well, what used to be in IFRAME is increasingly stuffed into a proprietary mime-type 15:32:06 GJR: such as flash, etc. 15:32:35 yes, and using DOM manipulation 15:33:11 GJR: i am in agreement with StevenP and Alessio -- object rather than iframe should be the way to move forward 15:37:04 Roland: I would like to adopt the "sub URIs visible in the top-level URI" feature of XFrames into XHTML2 as a whole 15:37:40 Rich: I agree in simplification (resucing the elements in the language) 15:37:46 s/suc/duc/ 15:40:20 Roland_ has joined #xhtml 15:41:04 rrsagent, make minutes 15:41:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 15:41:56 Present+Gerrie 15:42:20 Yam: Drop the name Frame 15:42:30 Steven: Yes, maybe it sends the wrong message 15:42:47 rrsagent, make minutes 15:42:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 15:43:22 Regrets+Mark 15:55:47 Topic: TOmorrow's agenda 15:56:27 Roland: XML Events 2 15:56:27 s/TO/To/ 15:57:32 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xml-events-20071114/ 15:57:53 Thank you, Shane, for reference. 15:59:40 ... and its relationship to XBL(2) 15:59:47 ok 15:59:51 :-) 16:00:01 We are cold, need to adjourn 16:00:05 rrsagent, make minutes 16:00:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 16:00:21 thanks for facillitating (and putting up with) remote participation 16:00:25 Rich has left #xhtml 16:00:27 ADJOURN 16:01:26 did I get it wrong??? 16:01:30 shame on me 16:01:51 you left of the dot h t m l which is part of the URI 16:02:10 it didn't show as a link, which is why i investigated via "edit" 16:03:34 well I did that deliberately 16:04:02 ah, but the link won't work if there isn't a dot h t m l attached to it, unlike the IRC log URI 16:04:07 W3C knows, and uses nontent negotiation when there are several resources 16:04:18 Yes it will! 16:04:34 it didn't with IE, SeaMonkey or Minefield... 16:05:01 Works for me 16:05:24 are you entering the URI into the location bar, or following the wiki link? 16:05:53 works without the dot h t m l in lynx... 16:06:27 mediawiki is very picky about extentions -- anything without one, it treats as an internal resource 16:07:24 i use media wiki on the linux foundation site, so am all too familiar with its peculiarities 16:08:11 ah, it is media wiki messing it up? 16:08:13 hmmm 16:08:23 seems that XHTML tagging is disabled -- http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Tag_extensions 16:08:54 tried to add an acronym expansion for W3C on my User:GJR page, but it appeared as part of the text, not as markup 16:10:13 and, yes, it is media wiki messing up the content negotiation -- all wiki pages are in flat hierarchical structure -- what appears to be directory structure is an illusion, which is why ending a wiki URI with a trailing slash leads you not to an expected page, but to a "this page does not yet exist" 16:11:01 in other words foo/foo2/index.html cannot be accessed using foo/foo2/, but needs the entire URI 16:11:27 foo/foo2 and foo/foo2/ are 2 separate URIs where media wiki is concerned 16:11:54 which is why i had to set up redirects for each apparent "directory" at a11y.org 16:12:13 redirecting the URI with the trailing slash to an actual resource 16:17:08 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions/Code 16:17:33 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Hierarchical_Namespace_Permissions 16:18:16 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Security_issues_with_authorization_extensions 16:18:58 http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix 16:19:28 probably more sysadmin stuff than you'd like, but media wiki can be a lot more flexible and secure with certain extensions 16:37:34 Lachy has joined #xhtml 17:02:05 Lachy has joined #xhtml 18:29:38 ShaneM has joined #xhtml 20:49:30 Lachy has joined #xhtml 20:52:03 Lachy has joined #xhtml 21:19:28 Steven-eee has joined #xhtml 21:19:43 rrsagent, bye 21:19:43 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-actions.rdf : 21:19:43 ACTION: Shane to upload final CURIEs draft [1] 21:19:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-46 21:19:43 ACTION: Steven to Draft last call announcement [2] 21:19:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-07-55 21:19:43 ACTION: Shane to add text explaining why some text is in orange [3] 21:19:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T09-12-52 21:19:43 ACTION: Roland to reply to issue 8001 [4] 21:19:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T10-31-11 21:19:43 ACTION: Steven review CSS Namesapces module [5] 21:19:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T11-28-41 21:19:43 ACTION: Steven to organise a new draft of XHTML2 [6] 21:19:43 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/18-xhtml-irc#T14-30-02