See also: IRC log
<PhilA> Discussion about the desirability of sanctioning 'bad code'
<PhilA> Chair; Kai
<PhilA> scribeNick: PhilA
DKA: Can we model some fake UA
strings that are associated with a typical kind of
deficiency?
... that could be documented and then used to test to work
around the deficiency
Kai: Then you're testing for
specific deficiencies
... We need to look at common deficiencies
DKA: That's what I mean - class
of deficiency
... CSS causes problems, table support
... We should focus on devices that say they support, say WAP 2
and actually don't. I can find out what they are
Kai: Can we say that the content
provider can take reasonable steps to accommodate common
deficiencies.
... Meaning that if they have thought about it they may get an
A for Effort
Adam: So if you're using technologies that you know aren't fully supported then you should work harder
Kai: It's about demonstrating that you are working around deficiencies that yuo know about - without specifying what those deficiencies are
Test is drafted and examples given
Further discussion about what the BP means. e.g. it does not mean pixel-perfect across all devices. It's about usability and intelligibility
<scribe> ACTION: Daniel to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Daniel
<trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dappelqu, dschutz)
<scribe> ACTION: Appelquistl to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Appelquistl
<scribe> ACTION: Appelquist to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-645 - Seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].
Discussion about what to test and what to expect. The BP doc is atypically verbose on this!
Tests for the Retry, Home and Back link; then test that error message is in the expected language
<DKA> Some info on deficiencies:
<DKA> - different devices adding preset margins and padding. eg to get a page he full width of the screen we need to use -2px on a width setting because the device automatically adds a 2px margin
<DKA> - poor implementation of background css (colours and images) while most devices support the functionality many support it poorly. the main problem is that the backgrounds disappear or breakup on scrolling
<DKA> - for a particular device: Scrolling the page, the [white] text over category header bkg [coloured background] disappears (the white text is still there, but the bkg color disappear
<DKA> - lack of proper <div> support. with many devices we have to resort to tables to layout content because divs do not work. This has various reasons (eg it is impossible to remove automatically added padding)
<DKA> - cascading: many devices don't support the full cascading of css selcters down the tree. This mans we have to add styles at all levels on a device
<DKA> - most CSS is supported it's just how it is supported that is the issue. Normally most CSS 1 is supported, but the implementation means that we can't use it.
<DKA> (from Vodafone Live! team dealing with rendering issues)
Discussion around error messages continued.
Does a server pass on to an error page/handling URI the context of the error, eg language? i.e. are we asking too much? Recorded as an issue
The BP says don't rely on it... and then it says under how to do it, don't do it for the DDC. This is a mismatch
There is a partial and constrained test in Basic. The Human test is actually much simpler
Kai: Does anyone think that we're going through these too quickly?
Discussion about what we're doing - feeling is that we'll create the draft doc which can then be the basis for more in depth debate
As an aside, DKA reports the release of the OMA browser with support for XHTML Basic 1.1 which is important for the transition of the BP doc to Rec
Discussion about what this BP means
Lengthy texts without pagination and so on is unlikely to be MOK
Basically, is the content 'designed' for mobile?
<drooks> scribenick drooks
<drooks> scribenick: drooks
drooks: there is a fine line between [limited] and [central meaning]
discussion centers around trying to distinguish between the 2 BPs
group is conscious not to target advertising as a bad thing
group descides to bundle [LIMITED] as [CENTRAL MEANING] as difference between the 2 can not be determined
<PhilA> Topic [LINK TARGET ID] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126683960
achuter: explains why using 'click here' and 'more' link text is bad for screen reader users
group leaves 'click here' and 'more' links as open issue
Topic [MINIMIZE KEY STROKES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#MINIMIZE_KEYSTROKES
group decides that this test is already covered by [CENTRAL MEANING], [AVOID FREE TEXT], [URIs] and [PROVIDE DEFAULTS]
Topic [NAV BAR] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVBAR
group limits test to checking for top page nav bar only has 1 line
Topic [NAVIGATION] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVIGATION
quick resolution made on test case for this BP
Topic [NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES
<achuter> http://www.wabcluster.org/uwem/tests/#guideline-1
group discusses decorative vs informative images
its quite a lengthy discussion
Topic [OBJECTS OR SCRIPTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT
brief pause to discuss ongoing actions as Phil has to leave shortly
everyone is going to take 6 tests to review / simplify / enhance
Kai now outlines timeline
RESOLUTION: charter will be delivered by 21-02-08
RESOLUION: first draft of reworked tests will be delivered by 21-02-08
RESOLUTION: next
f2f will be on 19-03-08 in London
... group aims to go to LC by 08-05-08
... LC comments will be addressed in June
... group aims to go to CR by end of June
lunch
Topic [OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT
resolution quickly reached
Topic [PAGE_SIZE_USABLE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_SIZE_USABLE
short discussion about PAGE_SIZE_LIMIT vs PAGE_SIZE_USABLE
agreement on test cases reached
Topic [PAGE_TITLE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_TITLE
another agreement quickly reached
Topic [PROVIDE_DEFAULTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PROVIDE_DEFAULTS
group takea a quick look at the existing basic test
and discuss checkboxes
tests are eventually agreed on
Topic [SCROLLING] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#SCROLLING
Topic [STRUCTURE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STRUCTURE
short discussion about heading markup
and what qualifies as structural markup
<Kai> test
Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_USE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_USE
Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE
long discussion about how to deal with this BP
should we check if any declared style elements are not used within the site - tough human test
should we check if the CSS is a certain % of the main page content - too restrictive
group comes up with a few tests that can be run
Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT
<achuter> scribenick: achuter
topic STYLESHEETS_USE
topic SUITABLE
adam: This is the weirdest BP of all.
<scribe> ACTION: On DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - On
<scribe> ACTION: DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - DKA
<scribe> ACTION: Dan write more examples of suitable BP. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-646 - Write more examples of suitable BP. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].
Adam: Need to check tab order regardless of whether tabindex has been used.
topic TABLES_LAYOUT
Kai: CSS isn't suitable for everything, like cell grid layout.
Dan: We don't want to go back and revisit the BP document.
<adam> ScribeNick: adam
Dan: MobileOK Basic test returns a warn for certain formats of table, the Pro test could be additive to that.
Discussion on why tables are bad (don't capture semantics of page) and trying to define examples to flesh out the test.
Kai: That they are running through this document implies that have fulfilled this BP.
Adam: Can we group TESTING statement with DEFICIENCIES or CAPABILITIES
Kai: Content-provider decides to create MOK Pro site, he has to get somebody to test with devices in order to do that, so the test is essentially a check-point that this has happened.
Alan: Just testing doesn't mean
they've done anything about it.
... If a content-provider hands off to a testing company to get
MobileOK Pro they will only have the content-provider's word
that they really have done appropriate testing.
Kai: Open issue noted.
Kai: What constitutes short enough? We need to bracket this test somehow.
Discussion on whether a limit should also consider the domain name, or just the path.
<achuter> http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
<Kai> Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG
<Kai> ACTION: Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-647 - Create a response to the concerns of the WG [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: Kai to update the charter document based on output of F2F [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-648 - Update the charter document based on output of F2F [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: Kai to create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-649 - Create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: phil to rework tests 1-7 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-650 - Rework tests 1-7 [on Phil Archer - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: Adam to rework tests 8-14 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-651 - Rework tests 8-14 [on Adam Connors - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: Alan to rework tests 15-22 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action12]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Alan
<trackbot-ng> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. achuter, atai)
<Kai> ACTION: aChuter to rework tests 15-22 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action13]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-652 - Rework tests 15-22 [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: Dan to rework tests 23-30 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action14]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-653 - Rework tests 23-30 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: Dave to rework tests 31-37 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action15]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-654 - Rework tests 31-37 [on Dave Roberts - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> Close action-654
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-654 Rework tests 31-37 closed
<Kai> ACTION: Rooks to rework tests 31-37 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action16]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-655 - Rework tests 31-37 [on David Rooks - due 2008-02-13].
<Kai> ACTION: Rooks to analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html#action17]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-656 - Analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do [on David Rooks - due 2008-02-13].
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