09:35:28 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 09:35:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-irc 09:35:36 rrsagent, make logs public 09:35:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:35:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 09:36:45 meeting: mobileOK Pro Task Force face to face meeting Day 2 09:36:58 Topic: [DEFICIENCIES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126671896 09:37:04 Discussion about the desirability of sanctioning 'bad code' 09:37:10 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:37:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 09:38:18 Present+ Kai, Adam, Dan, Dave, Alan, Phil 09:38:21 Chair; Kai 09:38:24 Chair:Kai 09:38:34 scribeNick: PhilA 09:38:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 09:38:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 09:39:51 DKA: Can we model some fake UA strings that are associated with a typical kind of deficiency? 09:40:14 ... that could be documented and then used to test to work around the deficiency 09:40:33 Kai: Then you're testing for specific deficiencies 09:40:41 Kai: We need to look at common deficiencies 09:40:53 DKA: That's what I mean - class of deficiency 09:41:24 DKA: CSS causes problems, table support 09:41:53 DKA: We should focus on devices that say they support, say WAP 2 and actually don't. I can find out what they are 09:43:02 Kai: Can we say that the content provider can take reasonable steps to accommodate common deficiencies. 09:43:18 Kai: Meaning that if they have thought about it they may get an A for Effort 09:43:57 Adam: So if you're using technologies that you know aren't fully supported then you should work harder 09:45:04 Kai: It's about demonstrating that you are working around deficiencies that yuo know about - without specifying what those deficiencies are 09:45:32 achuter has joined #bpwg 09:49:59 Test is drafted and examples given 09:58:27 Further discussion about what the BP means. e.g. it does not mean pixel-perfect across all devices. It's about usability and intelligibility 09:59:21 action: Daniel to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around 09:59:21 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Daniel 09:59:21 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dappelqu, dschutz) 09:59:40 action: Appelquistl to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around 09:59:40 Sorry, couldn't find user - Appelquistl 09:59:48 action: Appelquist to seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around 09:59:48 Created ACTION-645 - Seek examples of common deficiencies that should be worked around [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13]. 10:01:46 topic: [ERROR MESSAGES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126765624 10:05:37 Discussion about what to test and what to expect. The BP doc is atypically verbose on this! 10:08:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:08:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 10:09:06 Tests for the Retry, Home and Back link; then test that error message is in the expected language 10:17:32 Some info on deficiencies: 10:17:37 - different devices adding preset margins and padding. eg to get a page he full width of the screen we need to use -2px on a width setting because the device automatically adds a 2px margin 10:17:44 - poor implementation of background css (colours and images) while most devices support the functionality many support it poorly. the main problem is that the backgrounds disappear or breakup on scrolling 10:18:35 - for a particular device: Scrolling the page, the [white] text over category header bkg [coloured background] disappears (the white text is still there, but the bkg color disappear 10:18:48 - lack of proper
support. with many devices we have to resort to tables to layout content because divs do not work. This has various reasons (eg it is impossible to remove automatically added padding) 10:19:15 - cascading: many devices don't support the full cascading of css selcters down the tree. This mans we have to add styles at all levels on a device 10:19:31 - most CSS is supported it's just how it is supported that is the issue. Normally most CSS 1 is supported, but the implementation means that we can't use it. 10:19:50 (from Vodafone Live! team dealing with rendering issues) 10:20:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:20:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 10:20:41 Kai has joined #bpwg 10:20:54 Discussion around error messages continued. 10:21:24 Does a server pass on to an error page/handling URI the context of the error, eg language? i.e. are we asking too much? Recorded as an issue 10:21:41 Topic: [FONTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#fonts 10:24:29 The BP says don't rely on it... and then it says under how to do it, don't do it for the DDC. This is a mismatch 10:39:23 Topic: [GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#GRAPHICS_FOR_SPACING 10:41:26 There is a partial and constrained test in Basic. The Human test is actually much simpler 10:41:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 10:41:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 10:44:43 Kai: Does anyone think that we're going through these too quickly? 10:45:41 Discussion about what we're doing - feeling is that we'll create the draft doc which can then be the basis for more in depth debate 10:46:19 As an aside, DKA reports the release of the OMA browser with support for XHTML Basic 1.1 which is important for the transition of the BP doc to Rec 10:46:49 Topic: [LIMITED] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#LIMITED 10:51:33 Discussion about what this BP means 10:52:10 Lengthy texts without pagination and so on is unlikely to be MOK 10:52:48 Basically, is the content 'designed' for mobile? 10:57:25 drooks has joined #bpwg 10:57:39 scribenick drooks 11:01:26 zakim, what is topic? 11:09:34 scribenick: drooks 11:12:06 drooks: there is a fine line between [limited] and [central meaning] 11:12:44 discussion centers around trying to distinguish between the 2 BPs 11:16:28 group is conscious not to target advertising as a bad thing 11:17:38 group descides to bundle [LIMITED] as [CENTRAL MEANING] as difference between the 2 can not be determined 11:18:14 Topic [LINK TARGET ID] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#iddiv3126683960 11:18:57 TOPIC: [LINK_TARGET_ID] 11:21:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:21:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 11:24:46 achuter: explains why using 'click here' and 'more' link text is bad for screen reader users 11:30:05 group leaves 'click here' and 'more' links as open issue 11:32:34 Topic [MINIMIZE KEY STROKES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#MINIMIZE_KEYSTROKES 11:36:11 group decides that this test is already covered by [CENTRAL MEANING], [AVOID FREE TEXT], [URIs] and [PROVIDE DEFAULTS] 11:37:39 Topic [NAV BAR] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVBAR 11:44:22 group limits test to checking for top page nav bar only has 1 line 11:44:55 Topic [NAVIGATION] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NAVIGATION 11:45:19 quick resolution made on test case for this BP 11:45:53 Topic [NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#NON-TEXT_ALTERNATIVES 11:47:26 DKA has joined #bpwg 11:49:38 http://www.wabcluster.org/uwem/tests/#guideline-1 11:53:32 group discusses decorative vs informative images 11:57:41 its quite a lengthy discussion 12:02:18 Topic [OBJECTS OR SCRIPTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT 12:03:41 brief pause to discuss ongoing actions as Phil has to leave shortly 12:08:21 rrsagent, generate minutes 12:08:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html PhilA 12:08:29 everyone is going to take 6 tests to review / simplify / enhance 12:10:31 Kai now outlines timeline 12:30:05 PhilA has left #bpwg 12:31:32 RESOLUTION: charter will be delivered by 21-02-08 12:32:03 RESOLUION: first draft of reworked tests will be delivered by 21-02-08 12:32:37 RESOLUTION: next f2f will be on 19-03-08 in London 12:33:38 RESOLUTION: group aims to go to LC by 08-05-08 12:33:49 RESOLUTION: LC comments will be addressed in June 12:34:15 RESOLUTION: group aims to go to CR by end of June 12:38:00 lunch 12:38:19 rrsagent, generate minutes 13:36:51 rrsagent, generate minutes 13:36:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html drooks 13:37:56 drooks has left #bpwg 13:41:24 drooks has joined #bpwg 13:42:04 Topic [OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#OBJECTS_OR_SCRIPT 13:43:10 adam has joined #bpwg 13:45:47 Kai has joined #bpwg 13:46:52 resolution quickly reached 13:55:04 Topic [PAGE_SIZE_USABLE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_SIZE_USABLE 13:56:18 short discussion about PAGE_SIZE_LIMIT vs PAGE_SIZE_USABLE 13:56:38 agreement on test cases reached 13:57:20 Topic [PAGE_TITLE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PAGE_TITLE 13:59:26 another agreement quickly reached 14:01:03 Topic [PROVIDE_DEFAULTS] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#PROVIDE_DEFAULTS 14:01:26 group takea a quick look at the existing basic test 14:08:06 and discuss checkboxes 14:09:06 tests are eventually agreed on 14:10:07 Topic [SCROLLING] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#SCROLLING 14:12:02 Topic [STRUCTURE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STRUCTURE 14:21:34 short discussion about heading markup 14:22:34 and what qualifies as structural markup 14:26:41 test 14:27:49 Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_USE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_USE 14:29:59 Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SIZE 14:36:20 long discussion about how to deal with this BP 14:36:53 should we check if any declared style elements are not used within the site - tough human test 14:37:29 should we check if the CSS is a certain % of the main page content - too restrictive 14:43:45 group comes up with a few tests that can be run 14:44:12 Topic [STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT] http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-bp/#STYLE_SHEETS_SUPPORT 14:44:44 scribenick: achuter 14:45:01 topic STYLESHEETS_USE 14:49:17 topic SUITABLE 14:50:24 adam: This is the weirdest BP of all. 14:54:37 ACTION: On DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. 14:54:37 Sorry, couldn't find user - On 14:54:45 ACTION: DKA write mor examples of suitable BP. 14:54:45 Sorry, couldn't find user - DKA 14:54:55 ACTION: Dan write more examples of suitable BP. 14:54:55 Created ACTION-646 - Write more examples of suitable BP. [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13]. 14:56:48 matt has joined #bpwg 14:57:12 Adam: Need to check tab order regardless of whether tabindex has been used. 14:59:15 topic TABLES_LAYOUT 15:01:55 Kai: CSS isn't suitable for everything, like cell grid layout. 15:02:13 Dan: We don't want to go back and revisit the BP document. 15:04:07 ScribeNick: adam 15:05:38 Dan: MobileOK Basic test returns a warn for certain formats of table, the Pro test could be additive to that. 15:13:08 Discussion on why tables are bad (don't capture semantics of page) and trying to define examples to flesh out the test. 15:18:59 Topic: TABLES_SUPPORT 15:22:27 Topic: TESTING 15:26:18 Kai: That they are running through this document implies that have fulfilled this BP. 15:26:19 Adam: Can we group TESTING statement with DEFICIENCIES or CAPABILITIES 15:28:19 Kai: Content-provider decides to create MOK Pro site, he has to get somebody to test with devices in order to do that, so the test is essentially a check-point that this has happened. 15:28:42 Alan: Just testing doesn't mean they've done anything about it. 15:30:22 Alan: If a content-provider hands off to a testing company to get MobileOK Pro they will only have the content-provider's word that they really have done appropriate testing. 15:30:26 Kai: Open issue noted. 15:30:35 TOPIC: URIs 15:32:21 Kai: What constitutes short enough? We need to bracket this test somehow. 15:45:42 Discussion on whether a limit should also consider the domain name, or just the path. 15:46:08 http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI 15:53:11 Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG 15:53:15 Topic: AOB 15:53:26 ACTION: Kai to create a response to the concerns of the WG 15:53:26 Created ACTION-647 - Create a response to the concerns of the WG [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13]. 15:54:20 ACTION: Kai to update the charter document based on output of F2F 15:54:20 Created ACTION-648 - Update the charter document based on output of F2F [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13]. 15:55:55 ACTION: Kai to create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis 15:55:55 Created ACTION-649 - Create a telco for the TF on a weekly basis [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-02-13]. 15:58:35 ACTION: phil to rework tests 1-7 15:58:36 Created ACTION-650 - Rework tests 1-7 [on Phil Archer - due 2008-02-13]. 15:58:58 ACTION: Adam to rework tests 8-14 15:58:58 Created ACTION-651 - Rework tests 8-14 [on Adam Connors - due 2008-02-13]. 15:59:20 ACTION: Alan to rework tests 15-22 15:59:20 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Alan 15:59:20 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. achuter, atai) 15:59:47 ACTION: aChuter to rework tests 15-22 15:59:47 Created ACTION-652 - Rework tests 15-22 [on Alan Chuter - due 2008-02-13]. 16:00:16 ACTION: Dan to rework tests 23-30 16:00:16 Created ACTION-653 - Rework tests 23-30 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2008-02-13]. 16:00:47 ACTION: Dave to rework tests 31-37 16:00:47 Created ACTION-654 - Rework tests 31-37 [on Dave Roberts - due 2008-02-13]. 16:01:15 Close action-654 16:01:15 ACTION-654 Rework tests 31-37 closed 16:01:37 ACTION: Rooks to rework tests 31-37 16:01:37 Created ACTION-655 - Rework tests 31-37 [on David Rooks - due 2008-02-13]. 16:03:31 ACTION: Rooks to analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do 16:03:31 Created ACTION-656 - Analyse basic tests for tests pro needs to do [on David Rooks - due 2008-02-13]. 16:03:49 rssagent, generate minutes 16:04:18 rssagent generate minutes 16:04:33 rssagent, generate minutes 16:04:48 rrsagent, generate minutes 16:04:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/02/06-bpwg-minutes.html adam