<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF

<scribe> scribe: Gregory

<scribe> scribeNick: oedipus

<Roland> Gerrie Shults from HP joining

SP: 3 announcements: HP joining group again, 2) have at long last a wiki (only one full page) (MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki); 3) made f2f page
... third announcement -- yahoo announced last week that new mobile widget platform is based on XForms -- backs up a lot of what we've been saying -- chose so as to enable platform to be directed to as many devices possible, in the most appropriate manner -- in phase one (transitional) but second will use straight XForms

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF

RM: Selectors API - anything to report?

<Steven> http://mobile.yahoo.com/developers/roadmap

<markbirbeck> Shame that XML will never be used on the web, though. ;)

SP: webAPs have almost as many deliverables as we do -- at least 13

RM: 2 Web Apps groups going to merge

SP: part of review -- who will take up what

RM: Rich not here, so perhaps postpone ARIA issue discussion
... alessio will update wiki with details for f2f -- everyone planning to attend

[note: everyone on call planning to attend]

AC: IWA Italy (host)

Yam: need to know for visa app

SP: populate wiki and let yam know

ACTION Alessio - add details to f2f wiki page

Modularization Transition

SP: sent an implementation request to RM and Shane -- in status of doc, discovered that still talks about HTML WG rather than XHTML2 WG -- needs change
... will send info to all necessary channels

CURIES to Last Call

RM: datatype, etc. discussion at last week's call -- any answers?

<Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Mar/0038.html

SP: difference btw lexical value of CURIE and its value space
... my claim is lexical value is as described in spec, value space is just URI -- think mark agreed, but shane dissented, but willing to let it pass

RM: one more step -- pointing out that in Qnames talk about 2 components (2 seperate parts joined together for purpose) - value space, but alos prior stage when have 2 different parts -- left with mapping to URI plus suffix

SP: why would we need to do that

RM: point raised in email, if attempting to be backwards compatible applies to us, too

Shane: posted to list on topic - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0011.html

SP: my question to mark is - is there any sense in our being backwards compatible with QNames -- problem: 2 CURIES that expand to same URI, but prefix and suffix different -- not case in QName -- if same prefix and suffix there is a one-to-one mapping; don't see value of triples

RM: wants us to be clearer on whatever we decide -- we're dealing with specific case of QNames, not a general use of QNames -- if make clearer and say value space final URI cannonized by whatever cannonicalization thing supposed to use to compare 2 CURIES

MB: happy with that if Shane is

Shane: think i'm happy with that -- please refer to final paragraph

quote: Note that, as things stand right now, a CURIE used in a document like

XHTML+RDFa will NOT be expanded in the DOM. If you are writing portable

scripts today, you will need to do that expansion yourself. I think

that, given Steven and Mark's arguments, you MUST do this expansion if

you are going to attempt to do anything with CURIEs in a portable

script. If, on the other hand, you are just writing a script for your

own content, you could easily operate on the literal values, since you

know what the prefixes and references mean.

Shane: now, scripts are effecting DOM

RM: crack open and convert to URIs

Shane: does nothing to help write script looking for roles

SP: script uses these parsers -- include script and API gives you the different bits; libraries for CURIES that do expansion for you -- don't query DOM to "give me this" but ask the API
... agree with last paragraph -- not automatically in DOM -- have to construct yourself or use something that constructs it for you

[scribe's note -- GJR mistook MB for RM repeatedly)

RM: who will reply to tell what we will do

SP: candidates?

RM: the 3 people involved in the dialog

Shane: i can do it

<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add text about expanding CURIEs into URIs in scripting. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

SP: definitive reference for transition from IRI to what goes over wire

<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to respond to submitter of question about value space of CURIEs and their relation to the value space of qnames. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]

<Steven> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt

RM: CURIES issue 8010

<Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0051

Shane: we've already done this eight months ago

RM: final one on list also done?

<Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0000

"When a CURIE is used in an XML grammar, and the prefix on the CURIE is omitted, then the prefix MUST be interpreted as the current default XML namespace."

Shane: was it our intent to remove ambiguity (he says "flexibility") and answer is a resounding YES -- i replied to norm on this

SP: we do mean current namespace (in reference to NormW's last comment) -- must be interpreted as if had prefix of current default XML namespace

Shane; draft change so can't have non-prefixed CURIES -- have to define prefix

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-curie-20071126/

"When CURIES are used in a non-XML host language, the host language MUST provide a mechanism for defining the mapping from the prefix to an IRI. A host language MAY provide a mechanism for defining a default prefix value. In such a host language, if the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default prefix value is used. The concatenation of the prefix associated with a CURIE and its reference MUST be an IRI [IRI]. The CURIE prefix '_' is reserved. For this r

SP: mark, you said we made more flexible

MB: both scenarios XML Schema uses default NS, XSLT uses none -- asking if removed that, we didn't -- if allow host language to define prefix, have SPARQL if not have RDF
... second question - addressed as well

"The default prefix? Do you not mean the default namespace?

MB: host language MAY is wording

SP: default prefix is issue

Shane: if a language mapping permits defaults, it will define mechanism, if not, the language will not permit it

SP: if language doesn't support default prefixes, production for CURIE wrong - prefix not optional

Shane: not really -- syntax still right

MB: some kind of API? here are a whole lot of mappings, here is a CURIE, please tell me what the IRI is -- host language needs means of hosting and defining the CURIE through API -- language should inhibit the format that it doesn't like and not even call the API

Shane: arbitrary rules for prefix mapping -- can't have generic prefix mapping anyway -- there is no default prefix that is the rule

MB: latest editors' draft -- slightly out-of-date compared with RDFa -- perhaps we need to reword

<markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_curies

Shane: shouldn't be anything generic in RDFa that would cause problem unless something changed in last round of edits, which hasn't been made public

s/RM: latest/MB: latest/

MB: whether define mapping to use for default prefix and when define way for authors to override that are 2 seperate things
... need another draft

RM: objective is to issue LC draft
... can we get these cleared this week so can make decision to go to LC next week?

MB: cleared -- think specific comments resolved/answered

<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to reconcile CURIE draft with CURIE RDFa text so the processing model is consistent and the rules about default prefix processing are complete. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]

RM: draft ready for LC in time to review before next meeting

<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to produce a CURIE last call candidate for next week's call. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action04]

RM: done all can do today on CURIES -- any other issues?

[silence]

RDFa Module

<Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0001.html

RM: first item from last spring

<Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-rdfa-20070402/

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0003.html

<Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0008.html

"Two quick points noted by the CC folks: 1) xmlns still not supported.... darn DTDs, right? What's the path to fixing the W3C validator in this regard? Does it have to be schema-based? 2) it seems the document must be served as application/xhtml+xml... but XHTML 1.1 should be servable as text/html, right? Is there a deeper issue here that I don't understand?"

Shane: done something really clever -- group member took collection of test cases and integrated them into a web page with ajax backend stuff that allows for easy browsing and use of tests -- try to find link for that
... decent approach to testing -- i think; don't know how to run tests against RDF

MB: could use extended version of Manu's test suite locally

<Steven> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/

Shane: issues resolving references for URIs due to SPARQL queries

Shene: rules for dealing with test cases? not normative part of spec

SP: no, not normative, but part of transition to PR
... issue CR spec with test suite -- here's CR spec, here's test suite, and then use to prove have 2 implementations

Shane: isn't a test suite document -- just bag of tests tell people to use
... should draft reference drafts or part of transition announcement

SP: part of transition announcement

RM: near LC of RDFa

Shane: WG needs to approve LC draft once there is a document --some strange outstanding issues that need to be resolved

RM: none of items on list for modularization are still pertinent, but will look through

Shane: they are ALL closed off; implementation report, as part of most recent draft produced last week (thought would use for CR request)

SP: i did

Shane: updated M12n candidate for CR transition -- you refer to last editors' draft, but that's not what we are pushing for CR
... only thing changed recently is "prose versus implementation" -- should add text to clarify there is a prose spec and implementations, if inconsistencies, prose wins
... didn't agree to change MUST to SHOULD in M12n, just Role

RM: not my recollection

Shane: changed in role and considered changing in access; argued that can't change in M12n -- no one thought of implications of importing all attributes in a namespace

RM: think discussed in november
... relaxed constraint for Role for ARIA

SP: yes

Shane: agree we would do in role, but not in M12n

RM: have to change in M12n -- could be interpreted as change that could push back to LC -- will try and find pointer

GJR: think on second day of f2f

http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes

Shane: not even sure where to change

quote: <markbirbeck> When @role appears without a namespace in another language, it is because that language has added it to its own language. Just like @class in SVG is *not* @class in HTML, but they have given it the same semantics to make it easier for people to use
... Steven: I would prefer just one, with an ENglish sentence "Rule 3.1.5 of modularization does not apply to this attribute" or somesuch

Roland: Good

[scribe's note - Roland's comment "good" from minutes

rssagent, draft minutes

rssagent, draft minutes

<ShaneM> steven.... M12N says this: <p>Each of the attributes defined in an XHTML attribute collection

<ShaneM> is available for use when

<ShaneM> their corresponding module is included in an XHTML Host Language or an

<ShaneM> XHTML Integration Set. In such a

<ShaneM> situation, the attributes are available for use in the definition

<ShaneM> of elements that are NOT

<ShaneM> in the XHTML namespace when they are referenced using their

<ShaneM> namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., <code>xhtml:class</code>).

<ShaneM> The semantics of the attributes remain the same regardless of whether

<ShaneM> they are referenced using their qualified identifier or not.

<ShaneM> <strong>It is an error to use an XHTML namespace-qualified attribute on elements from the XHTML Namespace.</strong>

<ShaneM> </p>

<ShaneM> or roland. Is that where you think there should be a change?

<Steven> Thanks Gegory!

<Steven> Gregory

no problem, steven!

steven, are you going to push the minutes -- it's no bother to me if i do

<Steven> As you like

<Steven> If you volunteer :-)

aye, aye, cap'n!

steven, do you know to whom the mystery numbers belong?

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128  of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/for RM/for RM repeatedly/
Succeeded: s/RM: second/MB: second/
Succeeded: s/RM: latest/MB: latest/
FAILED: s/RM: latest/MB: latest/
Found Scribe: Gregory
Found ScribeNick: oedipus
Default Present: +386.8.aaaa, Steven, Roland, Alessio, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, +20876aabb, markbirbeck
Present: +20876aabb +386.8.aaaa Alessio Gregory_Rosmaita Mark_Birbeck Roland Shane_McCarron Steven markbirbeck yamx
Regrets: Christine
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0015
Got date from IRC log name: 16 Jan 2008
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html
People with action items: shane

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.