14:00:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:00:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc
14:00:38 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
14:00:46 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
14:00:47 <Zakim> ok, Steven, I see IA_XHTML2()9:00AM already started
14:00:52 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:00:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see +386.8.aaaa
14:00:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, alessio, oedipus, Steven, myakura, Lachy, krijn
14:01:03 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:03 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:05 <Zakim> +Steven
14:01:08 <yamx> yamx has joined #xhtml
14:01:30 <alessio_> alessio_ has joined #xhtml
14:01:39 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Roland
14:01:39 <Zakim> +Roland; got it
14:01:45 <Zakim> +??P9
14:02:11 <Steven> zakim, ??P9 is ALessio
14:02:11 <Zakim> +ALessio; got it
14:02:21 <Steven> zakim, ALessio is Alessio
14:02:21 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
14:02:55 <Zakim> +??P14
14:03:00 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF
14:03:04 <yamx> zakim, ??P14 is yamx
14:03:04 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
14:03:38 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:05:35 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmiata
14:05:51 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:05:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:06:02 <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmiata is Gregory_Rosmaita
14:06:02 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita; got it
14:06:09 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0015
14:06:22 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0015
14:06:28 <Steven> Chair: Roland
14:06:29 <Zakim> + +20876aabb
14:06:36 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aabb
14:06:36 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
14:08:03 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:08:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roland, Steven, Alessio, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, markbirbeck
14:08:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see markbirbeck, alessio_, yamx, RRSAgent, Zakim, Roland, oedipus, Steven, myakura, Lachy, krijn
14:08:31 <oedipus> scribe: Gregory
14:08:37 <oedipus> scribeNick: oedipus
14:09:13 <Zakim> +??P18
14:09:42 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
14:09:42 <Roland> Gerrie Shults from HP joining
14:09:58 <oedipus> SP: 3 announcements: HP joining group again, 2) have at long last a wiki (only one full page) (MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki); 3) made f2f page
14:11:07 <oedipus> SP: third announcement -- yahoo announced last week that new mobile widget platform is based on XForms -- backs up a lot of what we've been saying -- chose so as to enable platform to be directed to as many devices possible, in the most appropriate manner -- in phase one (transitional) but second will use straight XForms
14:11:22 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/
14:11:25 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF
14:11:41 <oedipus> RM: Selectors API - anything to report?
14:11:42 <Steven> http://mobile.yahoo.com/developers/roadmap
14:12:07 <markbirbeck> Shame that XML will never be used on the web, though. ;)
14:12:08 <oedipus> SP: webAPs have almost as many deliverables as we do -- at least 13
14:12:18 <oedipus> RM: 2 Web Apps groups going to merge
14:12:26 <oedipus> SP: part of review -- who will take up what
14:12:39 <Steven> Regrets: Christine
14:12:42 <oedipus> RM: Rich not here, so perhaps postpone ARIA issue discussion
14:13:01 <oedipus> RM: alessio will update wiki with details for f2f -- everyone planning to attend
14:13:15 <oedipus> [note: everyone on call planning to attend]
14:13:30 <oedipus> AC: IWA Italy (host)
14:13:39 <oedipus> Yam: need to know for visa app
14:13:51 <oedipus> SP: populate wiki and let yam know
14:14:05 <oedipus> ACTION Alessio - add details to f2f wiki page
14:14:14 <oedipus> TOPIC: Modularization Transition
14:14:46 <oedipus> SP: sent an implementation request to RM and Shane -- in status of doc, discovered that still talks about HTML WG rather than XHTML2 WG -- needs change
14:15:03 <oedipus> SP: will send info to all necessary channels
14:15:15 <oedipus> TOPIC: CURIES to Last Call
14:15:33 <oedipus> RM: datatype, etc. discussion at last week's call -- any answers?
14:15:39 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Mar/0038.html
14:15:47 <oedipus> SP: difference btw lexical value of CURIE and its value space
14:16:19 <oedipus> SP: my claim is lexical value is as described in spec, value space is just URI -- think mark agreed, but shane dissented, but willing to let it pass
14:17:21 <oedipus> RM: one more step -- pointing out that in Qnames talk about 2 components (2 seperate parts joined together for purpose) - value space, but alos prior stage when have 2 different parts -- left with mapping to URI plus suffix
14:17:28 <oedipus> SP: why would we need to do that
14:17:57 <oedipus> RM: point raised in email, if attempting to be backwards compatible applies to us, too
14:18:12 <oedipus> Shane: posted to list on topic - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0011.html
14:20:05 <oedipus> SP: my question to mark is - is there any sense in our being backwards compatible with QNames -- problem: 2 CURIES that expand to same URI, but prefix and suffix different -- not case in QName -- if same prefix and suffix there is a one-to-one mapping; don't see value of triples
14:21:16 <oedipus> RM: wants us to be clearer on whatever we decide -- we're dealing with specific case of QNames, not a general use of QNames -- if make clearer and say value space final URI cannonized by whatever cannonicalization thing supposed to use to compare 2 CURIES
14:21:24 <oedipus> MB: happy with that if Shane is
14:21:37 <oedipus> Shane: think i'm happy with that -- please refer to final paragraph
14:21:52 <oedipus> quote: Note that, as things stand right now, a CURIE used in a document like 
14:21:52 <oedipus> XHTML+RDFa will NOT be expanded in the DOM.  If you are writing portable 
14:21:52 <oedipus> scripts today, you will need to do that expansion yourself.  I think 
14:21:52 <oedipus> that, given Steven and Mark's arguments, you MUST do this expansion if 
14:21:52 <oedipus> you are going to attempt to do anything with CURIEs in a portable 
14:21:53 <oedipus> script.  If, on the other hand, you are just writing a script for your 
14:21:55 <oedipus> own content, you could easily operate on the literal values, since you 
14:21:57 <oedipus> know what the prefixes and references mean.
14:22:11 <oedipus> Shane: now, scripts are effecting DOM
14:22:19 <oedipus> RM: crack open and convert to URIs
14:22:29 <oedipus> Shane: does nothing to help write script looking for roles
14:23:08 <oedipus> SP: script uses these parsers -- include script and API gives you the different bits; libraries for CURIES that do expansion for you -- don't query DOM to "give me this" but ask the API
14:23:33 <oedipus> SP: agree with last paragraph -- not automatically in DOM -- have to construct yourself or use something that constructs it for you
14:24:13 <oedipus> [scribe's note -- GJR mistook MB for RM)
14:24:23 <oedipus> RM: who will reply to tell what we will do
14:24:26 <oedipus> SP: candidates?
14:24:34 <oedipus> RM: the 3 people involved in the dialog
14:24:38 <oedipus> Shane: i can do it
14:24:48 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add text about expanding CURIEs into URIs in scripting. 
14:24:51 <oedipus> SP: definitive reference for transition from IRI to what goes over wire
14:25:13 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to respond to submitter of question about value space of CURIEs and their relation to the value space of qnames. 
14:25:21 <Steven> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt
14:25:35 <oedipus> RM: CURIES issue 8010 
14:25:54 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0051 
14:25:58 <oedipus> s/for RM/for RM repeatedly
14:26:53 <oedipus> Shane: we've already done this eight months ago
14:27:12 <oedipus> RM: final one on list also done?
14:27:36 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0000
14:28:12 <oedipus> "When a CURIE is used in an XML grammar, and the prefix on the CURIE is omitted, then the prefix MUST be interpreted as the current default XML namespace."
14:28:42 <oedipus> Shane: was it our intent to remove ambiguity (he says "flexibility") and answer is a resounding YES -- i replied to norm on this
14:29:21 <oedipus> SP: we do mean current namespace (in reference to NormW's last comment) -- must be interpreted as if had prefix of current default XML namespace
14:29:39 <oedipus> Shane; draft change so can't have non-prefixed CURIES -- have to define prefix
14:29:41 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-curie-20071126/
14:31:07 <oedipus> "When CURIES are used in a non-XML host language, the host language MUST provide a mechanism for defining the mapping from the prefix to an IRI.  A host language MAY provide a mechanism for defining a default prefix value. In such a host language, if the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default prefix value is used.  The concatenation of the prefix associated with a CURIE and its reference MUST be an IRI [IRI].  The CURIE prefix '_' is reserved. For this r
14:31:51 <oedipus> SP: mark, you said we made more flexible
14:32:43 <oedipus> MB: both scenarios XML Schema uses default NS, XSLT uses none -- asking if removed that, we didn't -- if allow host language to define prefix, have SPARQL if not have RDF
14:33:40 <oedipus> RM: second question - addressed as well
14:34:17 <oedipus> s/RM: second/MB: second/
14:34:32 <oedipus> "The default prefix? Do you not mean the default namespace?
14:34:56 <oedipus> MB: host language MAY is wording
14:35:20 <oedipus> SP: default prefix is issue
14:35:44 <oedipus> Shane: if a language mapping permits defaults, it will define mechanism, if not, the language will not permit it
14:36:20 <oedipus> SP: if language doesn't support default prefixes, production for CURIE wrong - prefix not optional
14:36:29 <oedipus> Shane: not really -- syntax still right
14:37:41 <oedipus> MB: some kind of API?  here are a whole lot of mappings, here is a CURIE, please tell me what the IRI is -- host language needs means of hosting and defining the CURIE through API -- language should inhibit the format that it doesn't like and not even call the API
14:38:13 <oedipus> Shane: arbitrary rules for prefix mapping -- can't have generic prefix mapping anyway -- there is no default prefix that is the rule
14:39:10 <oedipus> RM: latest editors' draft -- slightly out-of-date compared with RDFa -- perhaps we need to reword
14:39:35 <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_curies
14:39:42 <oedipus> Shane: shouldn't be anything generic in RDFa that would cause problem unless something changed in last round of edits, which hasn't been made public
14:39:59 <oedipus> s/RM: latest/MB: latest
14:40:01 <oedipus> s/RM: latest/MB: latest/
14:40:38 <Zakim> -Steven
14:40:38 <oedipus> MB: whether define mapping to use for default prefix and when define way for authors to override that are 2 seperate things
14:40:54 <alessio> alessio has joined #xhtml
14:41:27 <oedipus> MB: need another draft
14:41:34 <oedipus> RM: objective is to issue LC draft
14:41:52 <oedipus> RM: can we get these cleared this week so can make decision to go to LC next week?
14:41:58 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:41:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:41:59 <Zakim> +Steven
14:42:18 <oedipus> MB: cleared -- think specific comments resolved/answered
14:42:27 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to reconcile CURIE draft with CURIE RDFa text so the processing model is consistent and the rules about default prefix processing are complete. 
14:42:35 <oedipus> RM: draft ready for LC in time to review before next meeting
14:42:43 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to produce a CURIE last call candidate for next week's call. 
14:43:11 <oedipus> RM: done all can do today on CURIES -- any other issues?
14:43:17 <oedipus> [silence]
14:43:26 <oedipus> TOPIC: RDFa Module
14:43:57 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0001.html 
14:44:10 <oedipus> RM: first item from last spring
14:44:40 <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-rdfa-20070402/ 
14:44:48 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0003.html
14:45:08 <Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0008.html 
14:45:13 <oedipus> "Two quick points noted by the CC folks: 1) xmlns still not supported.... darn DTDs, right? What's the path to fixing the W3C validator in this regard? Does it have to be schema-based?  2) it seems the document must be served as application/xhtml+xml... but XHTML 1.1 should be servable as text/html, right? Is there a deeper issue here that I don't understand?"
14:46:11 <oedipus> Shane: done something really clever -- group member took collection of test cases and integrated them into a web page with ajax backend stuff that allows for easy browsing and use of tests -- try to find link for that
14:46:40 <oedipus> Shane: decent approach to testing -- i think; don't know how to run tests against RDF
14:46:50 <oedipus> MB: could use extended version of Manu's test suite locally
14:47:00 <Steven> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
14:47:09 <oedipus> Shane: issues resolving references for URIs due to SPARQL queries
14:47:22 <oedipus> Shene: rules for dealing with test cases?  not normative part of spec
14:47:32 <oedipus> SP: no, not normative, but part of transition to PR
14:48:01 <oedipus> SP: issue CR spec with test suite -- here's CR spec, here's test suite, and then use to prove have 2 implementations
14:48:18 <oedipus> Shane: isn't a test suite document -- just bag of tests tell people to use
14:48:31 <oedipus> Shane: should draft reference drafts or part of transition announcement
14:48:39 <oedipus> SP: part of transition announcement
14:48:53 <oedipus> RM: near LC of RDFa
14:49:14 <oedipus> Shane: WG needs to approve LC draft once there is a document --some strange outstanding issues that need to be resolved
14:49:45 <oedipus> RM: none of items on list for modularization are still pertinent, but will look through
14:50:30 <oedipus> Shane: they are ALL closed off; implementation report, as part of most recent draft produced last week (thought would use for CR request)
14:50:32 <oedipus> SP: i did
14:51:04 <oedipus> Shane: updated M12n candidate for CR transition -- you refer to last editors' draft, but that's not what we are pushing for CR
14:51:40 <oedipus> Shane: only thing changed recently is "prose versus implementation" -- should add text to clarify there is a prose spec and implementations, if inconsistencies, prose wins
14:52:04 <oedipus> Shane: didn't agree to change MUST to SHOULD in M12n, just Role
14:52:13 <oedipus> RM: not my recollection
14:53:00 <oedipus> Shane: changed in role and considered changing in access; argued that can't change in M12n -- no one thought of implications of importing all attributes in a namespace
14:53:11 <oedipus> RM: think discussed in november
14:53:36 <oedipus> RM: relaxed constraint for Role for ARIA
14:53:40 <oedipus> SP: yes
14:53:51 <oedipus> Shane: agree we would do in role, but not in M12n
14:54:26 <oedipus> RM: have to change in M12n -- could be interpreted as change that could push back to LC -- will try and find pointer
14:54:32 <oedipus> GJR: think on second day of f2f
14:55:19 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes
14:55:39 <oedipus> Shane: not even sure where to change
14:56:00 <oedipus> quote: <markbirbeck> When @role appears without a namespace in another language, it is because that language has added it to its own language. Just like @class in SVG is *not* @class in HTML, but they have given it the same semantics to make it easier for people to use
14:56:22 <oedipus> quote: Steven: I would prefer just one, with an ENglish sentence "Rule 3.1.5 of modularization does not apply to this attribute" or somesuch
14:56:22 <oedipus> Roland: Good
14:56:42 <oedipus> [scribe's note - Roland's comment "good" from minutes
14:57:03 <Zakim> -??P18
14:57:07 <Zakim> -Alessio
14:57:08 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
14:57:10 <oedipus> rssagent, draft minutes
14:57:10 <Zakim> -Steven
14:57:11 <Zakim> -yamx
14:57:12 <Zakim> -Roland
14:57:29 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:57:30 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:00AM has ended
14:57:31 <Zakim> Attendees were +386.8.aaaa, Steven, Roland, Alessio, yamx, Gregory_Rosmaita, +20876aabb, markbirbeck
14:58:06 <oedipus> rssagent, draft minutes
14:58:18 <oedipus> zakim, please part
14:58:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
14:58:50 <ShaneM> steven.... M12N says this: <p>Each of the attributes defined in an XHTML attribute collection  
14:58:50 <ShaneM> is available for use when 
14:58:50 <ShaneM> their corresponding module is included in an XHTML Host Language or an 
14:58:50 <ShaneM> XHTML Integration Set. In such a 
14:58:50 <ShaneM> situation, the attributes are available for use in the definition  
14:58:51 <ShaneM> of elements that are NOT 
14:58:53 <ShaneM> in the XHTML namespace when they are referenced using their 
14:58:55 <ShaneM> namespace-qualified identifier (e.g., <code>xhtml:class</code>). 
14:58:57 <ShaneM> The semantics of the attributes remain the same regardless of whether 
14:58:59 <ShaneM> they are referenced using their qualified identifier or not.   
14:59:01 <ShaneM> <strong>It is an error to use an XHTML namespace-qualified attribute on elements from the XHTML Namespace.</strong> 
14:59:04 <ShaneM> </p> 
14:59:05 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes
14:59:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:59:06 <ShaneM> or roland.   Is that where you think there should be a change? 
14:59:13 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes
14:59:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:59:29 <Steven> Thanks Gegory!
14:59:36 <Steven> Gregory
14:59:40 <oedipus> no problem, steven!
14:59:52 <Steven> Meeting: XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference
14:59:55 <oedipus> present+ Shane_McCarron
15:00:03 <oedipus> present+ Mark_Birbeck
15:00:15 <oedipus> present- aaaa
15:00:20 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:00:25 <oedipus> present- aabb
15:00:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes
15:00:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:00:54 <oedipus> steven, are you going to push the minutes -- it's no bother to me if i do
15:01:09 <Steven> As you like
15:01:18 <Steven> If you volunteer :-)
15:01:32 <oedipus> aye, aye, cap'n!
15:01:51 <oedipus> present- [+386.8.aaaa]
15:02:32 <oedipus> steven, do you know to whom the mystery numbers belong? 
15:02:40 <oedipus> rrsagent, publish minutes
15:02:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:03:02 <Steven> Don't worry about it Gregory
15:03:07 <Steven> Zakim getting confused
15:03:08 <oedipus> i think  the atendees list is fille anyway
15:03:15 <oedipus> thank
15:03:18 <oedipus> er, thanks
15:03:39 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
15:03:39 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-actions.rdf :
15:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to add text about expanding CURIEs into URIs in scripting.  [1]
15:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-24-48
15:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to respond to submitter of question about value space of CURIEs and their relation to the value space of qnames.  [2]
15:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-25-13
15:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to reconcile CURIE draft with CURIE RDFa text so the processing model is consistent and the rules about default prefix processing are complete.  [3]
15:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-42-27
15:03:39 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce a CURIE last call candidate for next week's call.  [4]
15:03:39 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc#T14-42-43