<AllanJ> title: UAWG telecon

<scribe> scribeNick: oedipus

<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

<AllanJ> GR: fills in group on current PF - ARIA and namespace issues

<scribe> ACTION: Kelly - write description of alternative viewport issues that have been repeatedly raised [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html#action01]

GJR: CDF actions update -- been in touch with DougS, but hasn't had time to talk at any length about CDF implications for the DOM; have also been liaising with Kenny Johar (of Vision Australia and DAISY) who is in the process of joining CDF as DAISY representative on coordination of efforts

<AllanJ> GJR: DAISY profile incorporated in CDF, would negate need for a DAISY plug-in

<AllanJ> GJR: Discussing multiple DOMs with CDF, what needs to be there, communication between them, sharing information with a11y APIs

<AllanJ> GJR: sharing collaboration between Open Accessibility, Web API, WAIPF, Ubiquitous Web

JA: related to email i sent that no one has received -- native rendering which has cross-over with CDF and SVG and MathML; grew out of HTML5 VIDEO element; if have HTML document with embedded SVG via the VIDEO element all controls have to be available to accessibilityAPI
... video in SVG -- SVG player runs SVG content natively, so all controls and content should be communicated to a11y API

CL: are they first in the DOM?

JA: HTML5 proposal states supposed to be in DOM by browser

CL: browser knows about content?

JA: HTML5 native rendering of VIDEO (Opera has example)
... with SVG, have a different DOM or is it that if UA is rendering SVG natively, does UA DOM include all SVG information or are there multiples

CL: is SVG part of HTML DOM?

GJR: if SVG is served as application, then it will use a diffent DOM than the HTML5 UA, but there is talk of SVG in text/html which would allow not only for SVG embedding, but rendering natively by the HTML5 compliant UA through a single DOM
... CANVAS element (for immediate mode graphics) -- GJR objected because (1) there is currently no way to add semantic info to CANVAS and (2) i think it out of charter for HTML WG and should be handled by Graphics Activity; there a lot of support by developers because 3 implementation/partial implementations
... DanC (co=-chair of HTML WG) asked PF for comment and advice on CANVAS that's something UAWG might want to investigate; plan is to discuss CANVAS element on wai-xtech, i believe

CL: AaronL says: the SVG content in same DOM in FF -- don't expose it through accessibility API because don't know semantics for SVG unless the author has added ARIA markup

GJR: widgetization of SVG

JA: SVG elements in DOM with tree, but doesn't know semantics?

CL: semantics = label or heading -- doesn't interpret SVG elements in DOM and no mapping to a11y API as in HTML; FF looking for ARIA roles, states and events; if declare something about SVG in ARIA should be avilable, but theoretical

JA: could walk through SVG diagram - this is the spoke, this is the hub, this is the wheel

CL: might have to extend ARIA with custom roles

KF: with IE if have plugin have to add custom MSAA support for SVG with extension; would have to do what flash does today in IE to make accessible

JA: if have SVG plugin, it is up to SVG plugin to report semantics; if rendered natively, does burden get shifted to author to add ARIA?
... info may be in DOM, but accessibility API doesn't know where it is

CL: is same in IE -- show up in IE DOM?

KF: don't believe so
... don't support directly

GJR: this is where expert handlers would provide semantic interpretation and hand either to a11y API or directly to AT

JA: have HTML elements, go in DOM, but something in UA knows semantics and has rules as to rendering, navigation, etc.

CL: yes, UA knows a heading or table; has algorithms that map element types to a11y APIs -- never done in FF for SVG
... in HTML have a lot of a11y markup (alt, etc.) in adddition to element type; what needs to be exposed to AT?

KF: not enough info to reliably know what to expose

CL: right -- how does it get exposed or navigated -- SVG falls into complex visualization issue (eclipse and topology diagrams with java applets)

KF: need to leave

<AllanJ> GJR: there is work being done on 'expert handlers' - xml implementation, acts as intermediary between specialized markup and accessibility api

GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers

<AllanJ> CL: how does expert handler know what to expose to the a11y api

CL: how does expert handler know what to expose -- has to understand markup in context it is used

GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/MLs
... platform agnostic, which is why plan on using XML as basis
... http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/SMLs - http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/GMLs
... agree with JA's observation that it is a11y middleware
... generic handler defined XML Events 2 http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-events

<AllanJ> CL: SVG is not on either list, is it general or specialized

<AllanJ> GJR: still being discussed.

<AllanJ> ... thinks it would be general

JA: dependency on CDF -- what do we need to say -- GL6 talks about infosets and DOM

GJR: the ultimate fate of the "purpose" element for generic handlers -- XHTML2 WG which owns XML Events 2 has declared it is out of their purview

JA: actionable items in handlers? not specific actionable handler

GJR: build on generic handler architecture outlined in section4 of XML Events

<AllanJ> JA: 'handler' - actionable, or informational, that is revealing content to the a11y api

JA: could put burden on UA -- whatever exposes has to also expose to accessibility API -- burden on author to add ARIA

GJR: burden going to be on authors shoulders to add ARIA support

<AllanJ> GJR: ARIA markup acts as middle ware to expose info

GJR: our requirement is that that a generic handler has to be able to communicate purpose of generic handler; right now only way is ARIA

CL: agree and so does AaronL

<AllanJ> GJR: generic handlers needs to convey purpose, and context - identity, integrity, intent, state,

JA: up to author?

CL: yes -- right now it is

JA: future thinking -- put back on UA?

CL: UA in that loop -- if author adds ARIA, UA needs to expose to a11y API; other way would be to develop specific markup to apply to multiple markup languages

JA: if use a plug-in or separate rendering engine, falls on that component (RealPlayer, etc.)

CL: not considered markup languages

JA: except when rendering SMIL

CL: a lot of proprietary implementations -- for XML based, ARIA an approach to take

JA: any ideas as to where this needs to go -- anyone want to take an action to address this?

CL: from UA p.o.v. need to include ARIA as something that needs to be exposed no matter what

JA: GL6 would be where to state that -- implement interoperable programming interfaces -- specific checkpoint about ARIA? 6.2 says DOM access to HTML, XHTML needed -- should ARIA be a technique or be specific

CL: 6.1 and 6.2 need to be re-reviewed as does content definition -- think need to expand -- even though say XML, what is there is very HTML based; can't change XML infoset document, but can update our concept of XML content

JA: glossary items only now

CL: have action item -- one potential problem is we don't own infoset
... have to cover CSS, SVG, any XML-dialect/ML (generic or specialized) -- don't know how far can go until more work done on handlers and expert handlers
... will not be availble for rest of year after next meeting

JA: meet on 13 December 2007 -- next meeting after that provisionally on 10 January 2008 -- scares me to have month off;

CL: face2face in february?

JA: no

GJR: perhaps can have IRC office hours when meeting would have taken place

RESOLUTION: next UA WG meeting 13 December 2007 then no calls until 10 January 2008 -- in the interim, IRC "office hours" will be held during the regularly scheduled meeting time to maintain momentum and continue collaborative efforts and communication between UAWG members

rssagent, create minutes

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Found ScribeNick: oedipus
Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

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Default Present: Gregory_Rosmaita, AllanJ, KFord, Cathy_Laws
Present: Gregory_Rosmaita AllanJ KFord Cathy_Laws
Regrets: Peter_Parente Jan_Richards Kelly_Ford_(last_half)
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007OctDec/0057.html
Got date from IRC log name: 6 Dec 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: kelly

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<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report