IRC log of ua on 2007-12-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:51:18 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-irc
17:51:28 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:51:55 [AllanJ]
title: UAWG telecon
17:52:12 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim Allan
17:53:34 [AllanJ]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007OctDec/0057.html
17:53:48 [oedipus]
scribeNick: oedipus
17:54:26 [AllanJ]
Regrets: Peter Parente, Jan Richards, Kelly Ford (last half)
17:58:26 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
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+Gregory_Rosmaita
17:58:33 [KFord]
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scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
18:00:06 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
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-[Microsoft]
18:00:09 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:01:21 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
18:01:42 [AllanJ]
zakim, [Microsoft] is KFord
18:01:42 [Zakim]
+KFord; got it
18:04:40 [AllanJ]
GR: fills in group on current PF - ARIA and namespace issues
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+Cathy_Laws
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18:07:23 [oedipus]
ACTION: Kelly - write description of alternative viewport issues that have been repeatedly raised
18:08:39 [oedipus]
GJR: CDF actions update -- been in touch with DougS, but hasn't had time to talk at any length about CDF implications for the DOM; have also been liaising with Kenny Johar (of Vision Australia and DAISY) who is in the process of joining CDF as DAISY representative on coordination of efforts
18:11:00 [AllanJ]
GJR: DAISY profile incorporated in CDF, would negate need for a DAISY plug-in
18:12:31 [AllanJ]
GJR: Discussing multiple DOMs with CDF, what needs to be there, communication between them, sharing information with a11y APIs
18:14:13 [AllanJ]
GJR: sharing collaboration between Open Accessibility, Web API, WAIPF, Ubiquitous Web
18:16:57 [oedipus]
JA: related to email i sent that no one has received -- native rendering which has cross-over with CDF and SVG and MathML; grew out of HTML5 VIDEO element; if have HTML document with embedded SVG via the VIDEO element all controls have to be available to accessibilityAPI
18:17:33 [oedipus]
JA: video in SVG -- SVG player runs SVG content natively, so all controls and content should be communicated to a11y API
18:17:42 [oedipus]
CL: are they first in the DOM?
18:17:55 [oedipus]
JA: HTML5 proposal states supposed to be in DOM by browser
18:18:03 [oedipus]
CL: browser knows about content?
18:18:16 [oedipus]
JA: HTML5 native rendering of VIDEO (Opera has example)
18:19:05 [oedipus]
JA: with SVG, have a different DOM or is it that if UA is rendering SVG natively, does UA DOM include all SVG information or are there multiples
18:19:13 [oedipus]
CL: is SVG part of HTML DOM?
18:20:23 [oedipus]
GJR: if SVG is served as application, then it will use a diffent DOM than the HTML5 UA, but there is talk of SVG in text/html which would allow not only for SVG embedding, but rendering natively by the HTML5 compliant UA through a single DOM
18:22:05 [oedipus]
GJR: CANVAS element (for immediate mode graphics) -- GJR objected because (1) there is currently no way to add semantic info to CANVAS and (2) i think it out of charter for HTML WG and should be handled by Graphics Activity; there a lot of support by developers because 3 implementation/partial implementations
18:23:12 [oedipus]
GJR: DanC (co=-chair of HTML WG) asked PF for comment and advice on CANVAS that's something UAWG might want to investigate; plan is to discuss CANVAS element on wai-xtech, i believe
18:24:00 [oedipus]
CL: AaronL says: the SVG content in same DOM in FF -- don't expose it through accessibility API because don't know semantics for SVG unless the author has added ARIA markup
18:24:11 [oedipus]
GJR: widgetization of SVG
18:24:22 [oedipus]
JA: SVG elements in DOM with tree, but doesn't know semantics?
18:25:17 [oedipus]
CL: semantics = label or heading -- doesn't interpret SVG elements in DOM and no mapping to a11y API as in HTML; FF looking for ARIA roles, states and events; if declare something about SVG in ARIA should be avilable, but theoretical
18:25:36 [oedipus]
JA: could walk through SVG diagram - this is the spoke, this is the hub, this is the wheel
18:25:43 [oedipus]
CL: might have to extend ARIA with custom roles
18:26:33 [oedipus]
KF: with IE if have plugin have to add custom MSAA support for SVG with extension; would have to do what flash does today in IE to make accessible
18:27:09 [oedipus]
JA: if have SVG plugin, it is up to SVG plugin to report semantics; if rendered natively, does burden get shifted to author to add ARIA?
18:27:25 [oedipus]
JA: info may be in DOM, but accessibility API doesn't know where it is
18:27:32 [oedipus]
CL: is same in IE -- show up in IE DOM?
18:27:37 [oedipus]
KF: don't believe so
18:27:47 [oedipus]
KF: don't support directly
18:28:12 [oedipus]
GJR: this is where expert handlers would provide semantic interpretation and hand either to a11y API or directly to AT
18:28:51 [oedipus]
JA: have HTML elements, go in DOM, but something in UA knows semantics and has rules as to rendering, navigation, etc.
18:29:17 [oedipus]
CL: yes, UA knows a heading or table; has algorithms that map element types to a11y APIs -- never done in FF for SVG
18:29:52 [oedipus]
CL: in HTML have a lot of a11y markup (alt, etc.) in adddition to element type; what needs to be exposed to AT?
18:30:01 [oedipus]
KF: not enough info to reliably know what to expose
18:30:45 [oedipus]
CL: right -- how does it get exposed or navigated -- SVG falls into complex visualization issue (eclipse and topology diagrams with java applets)
18:30:49 [oedipus]
KF: need to leave
18:31:01 [Zakim]
-KFord
18:32:51 [AllanJ]
GJR: there is work being done on 'expert handlers' - xml implementation, acts as intermediary between specialized markup and accessibility api
18:32:56 [oedipus]
GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers
18:33:21 [AllanJ]
CL: how does expert handler know what to expose to the a11y api
18:34:07 [oedipus]
CL: how does expert handler know what to expose -- has to understand markup in context it is used
18:34:18 [oedipus]
GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/MLs
18:35:15 [oedipus]
GJR: platform agnostic, which is why plan on using XML as basis
18:36:01 [oedipus]
GJR: http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/SMLs - http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Accessibility/Handlers/References/GMLs
18:37:24 [oedipus]
GJR: agree with JA's observation that it is a11y middleware
18:38:10 [oedipus]
GJR: generic handler defined XML Events 2 http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-events
18:40:44 [AllanJ]
CL: SVG is not on either list, is it general or specialized
18:41:09 [AllanJ]
GJR: still being discussed.
18:41:29 [AllanJ]
... thinks it would be general
18:42:23 [oedipus]
JA: dependency on CDF -- what do we need to say -- GL6 talks about infosets and DOM
18:43:44 [oedipus]
GJR: the ultimate fate of the "purpose" element for generic handlers -- XHTML2 WG which owns XML Events 2 has declared it is out of their purview
18:44:19 [oedipus]
JA: actionable items in handlers? not specific actionable handler
18:44:38 [oedipus]
GJR: build on generic handler architecture outlined in section4 of XML Events
18:45:05 [AllanJ]
JA: 'handler' - actionable, or informational, that is revealing content to the a11y api
18:46:53 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
18:48:11 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
18:53:07 [oedipus]
JA: could put burden on UA -- whatever exposes has to also expose to accessibility API -- burden on author to add ARIA
18:53:49 [oedipus]
GJR: burden going to be on authors shoulders to add ARIA support
18:54:01 [AllanJ]
GJR: ARIA markup acts as middle ware to expose info
18:55:03 [oedipus]
GJR: our requirement is that that a generic handler has to be able to communicate purpose of generic handler; right now only way is ARIA
18:55:15 [oedipus]
CL: agree and so does AaronL
18:56:18 [AllanJ]
GJR: generic handlers needs to convey purpose, and context - identity, integrity, intent, state,
18:56:42 [oedipus]
JA: up to author?
18:56:48 [oedipus]
CL: yes -- right now it is
18:56:57 [oedipus]
JA: future thinking -- put back on UA?
18:57:35 [oedipus]
CL: UA in that loop -- if author adds ARIA, UA needs to expose to a11y API; other way would be to develop specific markup to apply to multiple markup languages
18:57:58 [oedipus]
JA: if use a plug-in or separate rendering engine, falls on that component (RealPlayer, etc.)
18:58:04 [oedipus]
CL: not considered markup languages
18:58:13 [oedipus]
JA: except when rendering SMIL
18:58:34 [oedipus]
CL: a lot of proprietary implementations -- for XML based, ARIA an approach to take
18:59:01 [oedipus]
JA: any ideas as to where this needs to go -- anyone want to take an action to address this?
18:59:22 [oedipus]
CL: from UA p.o.v. need to include ARIA as something that needs to be exposed no matter what
19:00:17 [oedipus]
JA: GL6 would be where to state that -- implement interoperable programming interfaces -- specific checkpoint about ARIA? 6.2 says DOM access to HTML, XHTML needed -- should ARIA be a technique or be specific
19:01:01 [oedipus]
CL: 6.1 and 6.2 need to be re-reviewed as does content definition -- think need to expand -- even though say XML, what is there is very HTML based; can't change XML infoset document, but can update our concept of XML content
19:01:10 [oedipus]
JA: glossary items only now
19:01:26 [oedipus]
CL: have action item -- one potential problem is we don't own infoset
19:02:15 [oedipus]
CL: have to cover CSS, SVG, any XML-dialect/ML (generic or specialized) -- don't know how far can go until more work done on handlers and expert handlers
19:03:58 [oedipus]
CL: will not be availble for rest of year after next meeting
19:05:54 [oedipus]
JA: meet on 13 December 2007 -- next meeting after that provisionally on 10 January 2008 -- scares me to have month off;
19:06:01 [oedipus]
CL: face2face in february?
19:06:03 [oedipus]
JA: no
19:06:26 [oedipus]
GJR: perhaps can have IRC office hours when meeting would have taken place
19:06:57 [Zakim]
-Cathy_Laws
19:07:04 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
19:07:06 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
19:07:07 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
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Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, AllanJ, KFord, Cathy_Laws
19:11:52 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: next UA WG meeting 13 December 2007 then no calls until 10 January 2008 -- in the interim, IRC "office hours" will be held during the regularly scheduled meeting time to maintain momentum and continue collaborative efforts and communication between UAWG members
19:12:01 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
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rssagent, create minutes
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rrsagent, create minutes
19:12:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:12:35 [oedipus]
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:12:43 [oedipus]
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19:12:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus
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19:12:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:14:03 [oedipus]
meeting: User Agent WG Teleconfernce
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/12/06-ua-minutes.html oedipus
19:42:42 [AllanJ]
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