November 2007 HTML WG meeting, final day -- 10 Nov 2007

ARIA in HTML5

<MikeSmith> [we begin with intro from Rich on ARIA]

Rich gives an introduction to ARIA. Making content accessible to AT. Two parts of the spec, states and properties. Describes how this is currently done.

The PF group would like to have the ARIA hyphen.

Dan – why not support webspaces.

Rich – its just more work.

Hixie suggested the have the ARIA hyphen checked.

Rich shows how states and properties can be declared in HTML.

Different ARIA methods include:

<div role=”wairole:checkbox” aria-checked=”true”>

<div aria-hidden=”true”>..</div>

<anne> (would be my proposal)

<anne> wairole: needs to be declared somewhere for Rich example to work (in theory)

<anne> same for aria:

<smedero> Issue Tracker URL: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/14

<anne> http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal has a proposal

<anne> it's not up to date with s/role/aria though...

<anne> but that should be easy if we decide to do that

Rich says we like this as users don’t have to deal with namespaces in HTML,

Support for aria-hidden’”true”

Rich points to aria-hidden’” true”

Those who wish to use ARIA in the namespace can, or they can import it into the markup. If they choose.

Comment: If not happy with Namespaces – restricted the aria style implementation – This approach could also worth with MATHML. Worries by implicit exclusivity of this approach.

Rich: This is really about how you would bring this (ARIA) into an XML markup.

Mike: Now the proposal is maturing it should be taken to other groups to discover what all of the other host languages should be. Looking at the strongest host language candidates. Is there a good use case for ARIA in other language?

Rich: We relaxed having to use namespaces in other languages;

ARIA role discussion

There are a number of vehicles being discussed.

Dan: Are these dead (<div role=”wairole:checkbox” aria-checked=”true”>

)

R: We currently import the XHML role module into the spec.

Currently using <div role=”wairole:checkbox” aria-checked=”true”>

R: The role attribute model has standard role values that are important for accessibility. ) banner, contentinfo, definition, main etc) ; Listed in Working Draft of the XHTML Role Att Module documents. (19^th OCT 2007)

These values are not prefixed.

We also define taxonomy of values.

3.4 Roles taxonomy of roles.

Dan: Is this a UML doc?

R: Defines taxonomy to help to define widgets. Things that traditionally found on the desktop. These can be used by AT to define the keyboard strokes (keymapping).. There is also support for Live regions. Where people whoa re doing AJAX application can have sections of the pages updated and notified when a change occurs.

The grey things are abstract classes. To pull then in, these are all in the role taxonomy, written in RDF fro modelling purposes. There is a prefix and a qname to represent these particular widgets in the aria taxonomy.

There are two ways to deal with the issues.

Do we use role attribute into HTML 5. The PF WG supports this.
2) a second proposal. (call attribute ARIA=”checked”)
<div aria=”checkbox”>

Ann: Role is a general accessibility mechanism; ARIA is a low level API to represent. Overloading is not a good idea, tried with object before and it was not a good idea. The attributes should be named as consistently as possible to make them easier to author.

R: Role is on every platform. Same on iaccessible2, Linux etc. We want role because this is not just delivered on the browser, being used on middle wave. Now there is role, aria, role. Don’t need multiple ways to describe the same thing. So we would like it to stay as role at this point. Targeting middle ware, not targeting browser, relax role, without having to use namespaces. It up to the group.

Dan: Who is maintainng the test suite?

R: the PF group.

Ann: opera has tests.

Mike: they use the extension mechanism.

R: I have one using the ARIA dash.

R: I have a drag and drop example.

Mike C: Not sure if the PF group has evaluated using the role attribute. Implementators opinion is very important (Aaron). Bounce the idea of using ARIA attribute instead of role to the PF group.

Ann: The role attribute is in theory boundless the way it is defined. Not clear of how it works.

Travis: Are you in favour of a name change.

Ann: Not sure what the role is to be used for. Must be consistent with the ARIA dash method. Important not to fork the ARAI role.

CW: I am missing what the role attribute does?

R: The middleware is using role twice. DIAL uses xhtml 2 adapted for diff devices. Now if I had a role. Why not one attribute that means the same thing? Doesn't make sense, confusing to have different roles in other domains.

Someone will create new taxonomies; there could be a name overlap. There are values to having a way to define taxonomy for these values.

R: There have been discussions about extensibility. We cannot review other taxonomies.

M: There should be co-ordination between vendors etc. You don’t want a browser implementing a taxonomy that the AT does not understand.

R: the problem is – someone hacks the taxonomy, or creates it from a flowchart (the string decision). We wish to prevent collisions.

Looking at use cases for SVG in the New Year.

Ann: Ontology’s can be created later

R: Why not now?

A: There is an assumption of baseline technologies. We could use what exists now as a baseline functionally. This will be the minimal set. Once we know the aria widget stuff. We need that now. If in the future we need to be careful, use prefixes in the attribute values anyway.

Maciej: Would disambiguation be useful?

~@ The idea is not to expose strings to the use

M: in access API,

R: We have extensive roles. Looking at other vehicles to example taxonomies. We want to prevent collision.

M: There has to be some level of uniqueness (strings)

M: How to turn a name paced URI to …

The real solution is to use curios ??

M: How can taxonomy provide information to the user?

A: but it has to be implemented.

R: I don’t want it to be fiexible to have the same name for lots of diff taxonomies.

R: We expand APIs.

@Taxonomies are documents they don’t have to be hard coded.

<fight>

Let hear Doug talk.

Doug explains taxonomies. You don’t have to build a user interface on an entire taxonomy. It can look at what individual strings represent.

Tran: This sounds like XML schema. Has by itself no semantic meaning.

M: Are you presenting XML scheme as a successful technology.

Tran: what can be possible with extensible [...]

M: a scheme is nothing to do with how to render it to the user.

Does not tell what will be outputted.

Henri: An XML schema does not give semantics to the user agent but provides a grammar. Having a taxonomy does not help with generating a UI. You want the AT to read something to the use within the chrome, what is to be read, these strings have to come from somewhere. You know what token is needed. The client . UI on their own don’t give. Either the client creates the widgets visually or aurally, or you are creating the UI from scratch.

Otherwise you just get Uri’s, these cannot contain [..], but a screen reader from France etc may have the needed localisation.

R: Yes, I understand how roles are communicated today to the UA. We are meeting the AT vendors to work it out. Monthly meetings with Freedom scientific. Rich describes what FS/JAWS. Meeting AI squared, linux, monthly meetings. If we need to extend things to include interoperability we can do that. Lets not solve that today, how to doe this via an API.

A decision statement in one taxonomy may mean something in another taxonomy. How this processed is a separate discussion.

M: I wish to see concrete examples.

Doug: we don’t have to solve this now:

Maciej: yes, we do.

R: Show me how to do this with a single string.

CW: There is taxonomy in the ARIA role. Having an open-ended taxonomy is your concern?

Ann: I would like the API to mention what the browser makers and vendors implement. Say Microformats start to us the role attribute. Don’t think it's a good idea.

Doug: I don’t think we can limit what authors do. Would it be better to have […] designed to be more flexible, the hcard example will be in there. It’s unfortunate. Lets make it as flexible as possible. Saying we will only do it one-way for accesibility. I don’t want to over engineer this.

@I don’t follow.

Henri: the time attribute on the [..] abbr? Element. Describes

Dan: the taxonomy is designed to match what is in MSAA

H : the taxonomy should help vendors

Dan: I don’t want the […] referenced by the URI.

Dan: what are the company FS?

R: going to show example.

H: string based roles in Opera. I don’t see how a string based URI helps AT.

Dan: Ugly namepaced solutions example. I like the <div aria=”something”> Example to show how this would work with URI based extensibility.

Dan: Proposal. Future teleconference on this.

<ChrisWilson> I think that is an intersting discussion for today, imho, anne.

<DanC_lap> ACTION: ChrisW to follow up on aria-hidden="true" support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<fantasai> Anne: Opera has an editor for the aria stuff, Simon Pieters

<DanC_lap> ACTION: Patrick_Ion to follow up on the idea that aria fits in mathml too (test cases/examples would be an ideal outcome) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say we may want to communicate cross-W3C to review implications on other host languages

<DanC_lap> tx

<DanC_lap> ACTION: DanC to make sure the emacs buffer with ARIA choices gets into the record [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]

<myakura> the latest xhtml role module draft http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-xhtml-role-20071004/

<anne> <div role=checkbox> was also proposed btw

<oedipus> myakura, the latest XHTML2 discussions on role are archived at: http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes.html#item01

<ChrisWilson> anne - it's an extensibility marker, Rich is getting to that.

<Rich> http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-role

<DanC_lap> W3C Working Draft 19 October 2007

<mjs> morning, folks

<ChrisWilson> g'morning maciej

<mjs> hey ChrisWilson

<MichaelC> ACTION: cooper to discuss UML tools with DanC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - cooper

<ChrisWilson> is it freezing cold in this room, or is it just me?

<MikeSmith> ChrisWilson - freezing

<DanC_lap> RS: 1. do we bring xhtml role attribute into HTML 5?

<DanC_lap> ... 2. have an aria attribute, e.g. ...

<myakura> @aria for roles, @aria-props for states/properties?

<MichaelC> myakura, yes

<DanC_lap> ACTION: Mike to integrate the offline notes into the record [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action06]

<ChrisWilson> PF group wants XHTML Role module

<anne> The reason for using aria= is that it's consistent with the properties and that role= is already overloaded as general accessibility mechanism

<ChrisWilson> Rich: role is widely used.

<anne> A transition path from role= to aria= is pretty trivial

<oedipus> XHTML Role module makes ARIA possible -- it is an extension built in accordance with the Role Module's extensibility mechanism

<ChrisWilson> Rich: we don't think role is just for accessibility - we think it's a general semantic declaration

<oedipus> rich++

<ChrisWilson> thanks, Mike

<ChrisWilson> er, MikeSmith

<ChrisWilson> Danc_lap: who's maintaining the test suite

<MikeSmith> [Joshue O'Connor is taking good notes and will e-mail them to me after the session]

<anne> http://simon.html5.org/test/aria/ has tests for the http://simon.html5.org/specs/aria-proposal proposal

<DanC_lap> (ah... this is familiar)-

<DanC_lap> role/ 14-Oct-2007 08:16 -

<MichaelC> ACTION: MichaelC to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - MichaelC

<ChrisWilson> anne: I would think aria (vs role) would restrict the types to just widgets (or things that make sense for accessibility)

<DanC_lap> I gather Aaron Leventhal and Jon Gunderson do most of the test maintenance

<ChrisWilson> Rich: middleware is using the role attrib for device adaptation

<anne> 1. Consistency with aria-. 2. No clashing with XHTML2

<anne> are my arguments for aria=

<ChrisWilson> rich: if I have to deal with an aria attribute now, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

<oedipus> danC, there is a table of supported roles at http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/ARIA:_Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications#Landmark_Roles_from_XHTML_role_attribute_module

<MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload

<trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config

<trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/

<ChrisWilson> anne, what's the clash? I think if we point to the XHTML Role attribute, it's defined the same?

<MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status

<DanC_lap> "Some but not all of this demonstration will be showing content

<DanC_lap> from our draft test suite." -- Al G. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0265.html

<MikeSmith> ACTION: MichaelC to discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-8 - Discuss with PFWG role attribute vs aria attribute [on Michael Cooper - due 2007-11-17].

<oedipus> danC: there is also the Best Practices QA at: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests (maintained at that location so could be collaboratively maintained, moinmoin doesn't allow hyperlinks in DT

<DanC_lap> values of what, oedipus ? you might pick somebody else to be your proxy; my attention is mostly used up

<oedipus> danC, just trying to point you to testing materials and data

<DanC_lap> so I can look at it later? ok. thanks.

<oedipus> precisely, np

<molly> waves back at DanC and wonders where TBL's guitar is...

<MichaelC> ACTION: MichaelC to discuss UML tools with DanC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-9 - Discuss UML tools with DanC [on Michael Cooper - due 2007-11-17].

<DanC_lap> tbl took his guitar home after the gig

<ChrisWilson> heheh. I win!

<MikeSmith> :)

<DanC_lap> phspadhf

<ChrisWilson> smedero, don't cross the streams

<MikeSmith> Chair: DanC, ChrisWilson

<fantasai> Hsivonen points out that XML Schema doesn't provide semantics, it provides a pattern to validate against

<fantasai> Hsivonen explains that presenting these things requires UI strings, which the schema isn't providing

<fantasai> hsivonen: URIs on their own don't give you UI. You have to get the UI from somewhere.

<fantasai> hsivonen: Either the client embodies the UI visually or orally, or it has to build one up somehow.

<fantasai> hsivonen: and URIs don't provide the information necessary to build the UI

<fantasai> hsivonen: They don't provide e.g. localized auditory data

<MikeSmith> ACTION: Michael(tm) to integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-10 - Integrate into the Nov. 2007 meeting record the notes that Joshue took during the 2007-11-10 ARIA discussion [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2007-11-17].

<fantasai> hsivonen: Dereferencing the UI won't be giving all the localizations. Instead it is more reasonable to expect localized screen readers to give a localized UI for the widget

<hsivonen> Dereferencing the URI...

<fantasai> Rich asserts that we are limiting ourselves and roles will be valuable in the future.

<oedipus> rich+++

<DanC_lap> (what's the group he meets with?)

<fantasai> Rich: I've had monthly meetings with vendors, and we work with X, Y, and Linux software

<ChrisWilson> Rich has regular meetings with Freedom Scientific, who own ~80% of the AT market, and others.

<anne> Freedom Scientific would be X

<DanC_lap> tx, cW

<fantasai> Rich: The vehicle that is currently provided in the role attribute allows you to separate out .. taxonomies.

<MichaelC> note that 80% of the market is of the North American market; we should reach out to AT vendors internationally as well

<fantasai> Maciej: I'm not willing to take on faith that role attributes and taxonomies will result in a usable UI

<fantasai> Maciej: I want to see a concrete example.

<Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to describe how a taxonomy helps turn content into spoken words

<MikeSmith> some comments from Chris Lilley:

<MikeSmith> [[

<MikeSmith> In terms of the SVG position, SVG can use the aria attributes as currently specified (ie, namespaced) with no problem and with no change to the specification at all. The SVG spec already covers what to do with unknown qualified attributes on SVG elements.

<MikeSmith> It could also, as a second-best option, use them un-namespaced if they were added to the svg specification.

<MikeSmith> We do have a problem with the xhtml modularisation requirements (need to use their dtd structure etc which seems unnecessary and largely orthogonal to what content or viewers/browsers do) but I have an action to talk to Steven about that and report back to WAI PF.

<MikeSmith> ]]

<jgraham_> We're being asked to accept a lot of complexity now on the assertion that there may be a problem to solve in the future

<PIon> Use case descriptions, or pointers to them, would be rather helpful.

<DanC_lap> (I note the scheduled time is up, and I'm hearing a requirements discussion, which is the next thing... break, anyone, or just carry on ?)

<DanC_lap> (... with a new Topic: for the record?)

<mjs> I would like a break at some point

<fantasai> Anne: The role attribute is overloaded. We'd be using it for ARIA accessibility, but other groups will want to use it for other things, e.g. microformats.

<mjs> but I am not sure this topic is usefully over

<fantasai> Anne: How do we know when to use the low-level accessibility APIs and when to just leave the strings in the document?

<DanC_lap> (continue for 30 more minutes on this topic? 15? 20?)

<ChrisWilson> DanC_lap, I think we should continue for no more than 15, and take a break.

<DanC_lap> oops

<ChrisWilson> Our other option is to break right now and come back for 20+ minutes.

<anne> So I don't want to implement technology X and Y based on the same attribute

<anne> We tried that for a single element and it failed horribly already

<ChrisWilson> oh sure, make me spell. :)

<fantasai> Hsivonen: An example of ... taxonomy ... is the type attribute on <input>

<fantasai> Hsivonen: The way the UA generates UI isn't by generating anything, but instead it has code that knows already about these types

<fantasai> DanC: Did you hear the point that the accessibility UIs was created by picking the brains of 80% of the accessibility vendors?

<Rich> DS: considering that authors will use this in unexpected ways, is it realistic to limit the possible values? it might be better to design it to be more flexible anticipating that use?

<fantasai> DanC: The way you dereference the URIs is that you write code, like the code hsivonen was saying. You don't dereference it and build something on the fly.

<fantasai> Anne: So why not just use a simple string?

<fantasai> Anne: The role attribute has a URI-based syntax

<anne> versus <div aria="something">

<fantasai> Hsivonen: I don't see how URI-based syntax helps in that case: the UA still has to recognize the token and have already built UI to use it

<fantasai> DanC points to Anne's examples.

<fantasai> DanC: So here we have another example of ugly namespaces getting in the way.

<Rich> ACTION: DanC to show how <div aria="something"> works with URI based extensibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-11 - Show how <div aria=\"something\"> works with URI based extensibility [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-17].

<fantasai> DanC: If we map aria="something" to the wiarole stuff, we have the same information

<Hixie> mjs: you can tell zakim your point, as in "q+ to say something"

<fantasai> break

<anne> interesting

<ChrisWilson> ...I think Dan means <a href="..." ping="...">.

<ChrisWilson> and pingref? Haven't re-read that section thoroughly lately

<smedero> oedipus: no problem.

<anne> http://www.whatwg.org/html5

<jgraham_> full version: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/

<MikeSmith> ACTION: DanC to make sure the alternate URL for the spec is in the Nov. 2007 meeting record [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action12]

postscript: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ is the address of the HTML 5 spec editor's draft hosted by W3C

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-12 - Make sure the alternate URL for the spec is in the Nov. 2007 meeting record [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-11-17].

<jgraham_> other multipage link: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/

<glazou> Hixie: ping

<MikeSmith> Scribenick: chaals

<MikeSmith> Scribe: Chaals

rel= ownership

DC: We had Extensibility discussion...

IH: HTML5 currently has wiki link to define new rel values, plus some from HTML4

DC: Seems the community is happy with this. Question is which wiki...
... if rel value wiki was microformats.org I could write an official liaison

AvK: We would like something that validators could query etc - some API

DC: agree

<ChrisWilson> kevinLawver, to test/validate/know what we need to support.

<anne> Basically a Web service where you can easily add new values, revise existing values (from proposal to approved, etc., updating spec pointers), and also a way to get all values in some easy parsable format

DC: dealing with microformats.org is easier than eg IANA

<KevinLawver> Are we then going to set a defined set of allowed classes and id's as well?

CW: Think we need something better than just a wiki

<fantasai> Maciej: I think microformats.org hosting the registry is fine, don't mind either way

MH: You want soething to bring µformats committee closer to W3C

<anne> KevinLawver, classes and IDs are not "global" I think

DC: Right now they are peers, so bringing them closer would be good.

<fantasai> DanC: We can say that microformats.org's process is reasonable and have the W3C officially endorse microformats.org. [p.s. note section 10 Liaisons in the W3C process.]

ACTION: DanC to draft a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values [#actionmf]

<ChrisWilson> classes and ids are knowingly unbounded.

<ChrisWilson> rel is bounded by interoperability.

<ChrisWilson> (today, that is)

<fantasai> Molly: If you're saying they have to come in as members, that's a problem.

MH: If they had to come in as members that would be a problem...

<fantasai> DanC: That's not what I meant.

<scribe> scribe: fantasai

DanC: They have their own process

<chaals> scribeNick: fantasai

DanC: We can write it up and explain it to the W3C hand set up an official liaison etc

Molly: What does Tantek think?

DanC: Haven't asked him.

Molly: My experience is that there's a lot of twisting of semantics going on there, it's distressing.

<gsnedders> Another issue with moving µformats closer to the W3C is that a lot of the process there is all based around moving quickly — something that is not done here due to burorcarsy

Molly: So one of the things we're doing for best practices is to encourage people not to touch the document too much, to keep the markup pristine.
... We don't want to go back and touch those documents, especially on large sites.
... With Microformats you're adding a lot of stuff that has to be tracked and formatted.
... And there's not a lot of consistency in their use.

Molly lists criticisms: overuse of class attribute, misappropriation of other attributes like 'title',

<gsnedders> Some of the design choices for µf were done because of bugs in UAs like Safari 1.0, which now have very little use. Could those be changed, I wonder

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say a subset of microformat approaches creates accessibility problems; W3C endorsement would need resolution of those issues

<dbaron> People shouldn't touch the document for style (perhaps), but microformats are about content, which should be in the document.

<ChrisWilson> MichaelC specifically mentions the title attrib creating accessibility problems

MichaelC: Molly's basically covered me. Microformat's use of the title attribute creates problems for accessibility.

<Zakim> kevinlawver, you wanted to refute molly's assertion about microformats

Kevin: As a member of the micoformats community and someone who's created one, I can see the problem with the title attribute but I think the use of the class attribute is in line

<ChrisWilson> "It's not an argument, it's a discussion. We only have a few minutes." cause and effect?

Kevin: Microformats are a guerilla movement to add semantics in places where the HTML spec doesn't have.
... ...
... I think microformats can evolve.

<oedipus> GJR notes that PF WG has requested that "title" be added to XHTML Role Module's pre-difined roles:

<oedipus> consult: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0123.html

DanC: Suppose I'm an HTML author and I'm making a shopping list. I chose shopinglist to name my list.
... Life goes on and hShopping goes out and it's all the rage
... Then I realize I've mispelt shoppinglist, fix it, and all of a sudden my list goes green and starts jumping around.

<chaals> [that is my concern...]

<ChrisWilson> KevinLawver: "Then it's your own damn fault for not being on the open web."

<Lachy> DanC, that's absurd. The default presentation of any new microformat isn't going to be that detrimental

Kevin explains microformats methodology and how existing use is examined and e.g. names like vevent are chosen over event.

Move to table argument.

Molly: What's the goal?

<ChrisWilson> Lachy, I'm not sure I agree with that; I do agree that it's not a major problem (yet).

DanC: You mentioned concerns about class, I have to understand that to write it up.

<Lachy> I wonder, with any existing uf, has the default presentation in any UA caused any such problems?

<chaals> fantasai: Some stuff on µformats is better than other stuff...

fantasai: W3C shouldn't be vetting everything that gets put up

<molly> my concern is not in the use of class, but in the overuse of class within large document management situations. Who maintains the documentation? How do you manage organic growth with so many classes in a document, etc.

<Lachy> I suspect the answer is no and that Dan is just making up a problem that doesn't actually exist

<KevinLawver> I think we table this until we can get tantek or some other microformats "luminary" explain the process.

DanC: This pointer has to be scoped, not generally recommending everything.

Anne explains the whatwg relextension

<Zakim> Hixie, you wanted to ask what we're pointing at

page

<anne> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/RelExtensions

Anne: There are proposals and approved extensions. Approved basically means it has gone through the microformats process.

fantasai thinks that system is fine

<PIon> DanC; gave example of the author who does class='shoping-list' in pages and in the CSS; then, say, use of 'shoping-list' becomes popular, but the author realizes the mispelling, corrects it on all the written site pages --- and everyone deplores that the popular 'shoping-list' sites elsewhere are broken and confusion with another, perhaps more official, 'shopping-list' value and its uses abounds.

<Hixie> i asked them here: http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2007-11-10#T154438

Hixie points to spec that points to whatwg registry

Canvas

DanC: I contacted SVG group and explained what this was and asked if there were any objections, and I heard none.
... Chris Lilley wrote that there are vector graphics and immediate mode graphics and the world needs both and they can co-exist

<Hixie> "Forms and common UI widgets such as progress bars, datagrids, menus, and other controls."

<Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html

<glazou> I really wonder if a wiki page for rel extensions is considered a reliable registry...

<fantasai> if it's only one page, each entry is simple enough that there's almost no editorial editing, and it's being watched, it should be ok

Hixie suggests that <canvas> falls under widgets

Maciej: Is it possible to edit the charter without going through the whole charter approval process?
... That will rathole the whole group.

DanC: No, we can't do that.

Maciej: Then I suggest we don't go there.

<anne> [a-z]* would cover that

<chaals> ach chr

<Hixie> er

<anne> sorry [a-z-]*

argument about whether <canvas> is covered in the HTMLWG charter.

ChrisW: I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I'm saying it's not in our charter.
... Our lawyers when reviewing this document wouldn't have checked for graphics patents

DanC: tells Maciej to add Immediate Mode Graphics to the Principles/Requirements issue tracker

<chaals> ACTION: Chaals make a proposal to explain how immediate mode graphics is part of HTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Chaals

<chaals> ACTION: charles make a proposal to explain how immediate mode graphics is part of HTML [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action14]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - charles

<smedero> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/15

Hixie: <canvas> is an HTML element, is in three browsers, and is one of the most interoperable parts of the HTML5 spec. Why dont' we just put it in? It's in the charter already.

<Lachy> Since <canvas> is so widely used and implemnted by 3 major browsers already, it really needs to be defined somewhere. And since it's an HTML element, it should be defined in HTML5

DanC tries to mediate between MS and Hixie

Hixie feels that this will be wasting time

<oedipus> Lachy, re canvas remarks, what about SVG in text/html -- is that unrealistic from your perspective? is canvas sufficient, in competition with, or render redundant SVG in text/html?

Anne: why wasn't this raised when the document was submitted?

DanC: It was

Chaals wants a chance to write things up

seems to be some misunderstanding of what was and was not in the charter.

<Lachy> oedipus, I'm ok with eventually developing SVG for use in HTML. As Dan said earlier, vector graphics and immediate mode graphics can co-exist

Maciej: I believe it was in earlier drafts of the charter, but was edited out later.

DanC: Hixie made a strong point that we should essentially agree that it's in. So we put the question, and 7 days later that would be it. Chris are you ok with that?

<anne> CW: I thought it was in the charter, Chris Lilley thought it was in the charter too

ChrisW: What do you mean

DanC: We agree that it's included in bullet ?

ChrisW: There's no mention of graphics

discussion of patent policy stuff and 150 days from first public working draft or 90 days or something

DanC: The proposal for issue-15, which is more or less a thumbs-up,

<dbaron> Patent policy is at http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy-20040205/#sec-Exclusion

DanC: how long will it take for your lawyers to get back to us?

<dbaron> "Specific Essential Claims may be excluded from the W3C RF licensing requirements by a participant who seeks to remain in the Working Group only if that participant indicates its refusal to license specific claims no later than 150 days after the publication of the first public Working Draft [PROCESS, section 7.4.1] by specifically disclosing Essential Claims that will not be licensed on W3C RF terms."

<glazou> KevinLawver: ?

<glazou> KevinLawver: YGM

<Lachy> Canvas was in the WHATWG draft well before the HTMLWG charter was written. I think it's just a mistake that it wasn't mentioned more explicitly than it is, but that it does fall under widgets

<scribe> ACTION: ChrisW to come back in a month with more information on MS patent review with <canvas> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action15]

<dbaron> "A participant may resign from the Working Group within 90 days after the publication of the first public Working Draft and be excused from all licensing commitments arising out of Working Group participation."

<dbaron> So there are actually both 90 day and 150 day clocks that start at FPWD.

thanks dbaron

10 min break

<Lachy> it could also fall under editing apis, since it allows for editing of graphics

<molly> Kevin and I have created a new microformat to define robber barons versus fanatics

<molly> we are overusing class

<molly> and I'm thinking about a way to misappropriate the title attribute

<molly> just for fun :D

<dbaron> can I object to the terminology in your new microformat? :-P

<KevinLawver> You can, dbaron, but that will probably put you firmly in one of the two buckets.

<anne> I suggest you use <abbr> in weird ways too

<mjs> dbaron: I see, so you have a 90-day clock to quit with no obligation, and a 150-day clock to claim specific exclusion if you didn't quit

<KevinLawver> Seriously, the only really ugly hack in microformats land that i'll admit to is using title with non-human readable dates. It's ugly, and i think we understand it's ugly - but it's not something that can't be fixed by adding a "value" attribute to HTML5.

<KevinLawver> (or something like it)

<mjs> it's not?

<mjs> oh

<anne> any other sentences?

<KevinLawver> Sorry, if it is, I haven't gotten to it yet.

<mjs> "not something that can't"

<KevinLawver> I'm new here - I'm still catching up on the mountain o' spec.

<Hixie> KevinLawver: we've already fixed that one with <time datetime=>

<Hixie> in html5

<Hixie> and i agree that's the only major issue

<KevinLawver> Sweet, then my work here is done. Up, up and away!

<smedero> Results of Questionnaire Release "HTML Design Principles" as a W3C Working Draft? - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/wdhdp/results

DanC points the non-responders: This is the problem right here.

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to make sure non-responders are ok with proposal to publish the principles [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action16]

<anne> DanC: and likewise the spec

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to make sure non-responders are ok with proposal to publish the spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action17]

<tantek> datetime is only one example of a data type which requires different human vs. machine readable information, thus <time datetime=> only solves some cases

<tantek> other examples:

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to put question in issue-15: does the working group want to do <canvas> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action18]

<tantek> * geo: e.g. longitude as a decimal (for machines) vs. ° ' " (deg min sec)

offline applications

DanC: charter doesn't mention SQL
... We can add an issue

<tantek> * localized labels vs. enumerated set, e.g. tel type of "work" (enumerated value) vs. "Arbeit:" (label in German)

DanC: It would be more straightforward to publish this as a separate draft. People would sit up and pay attention, since offline app stuff would be its own psec with that in the title.

<chaals> [/me thinks that the relationship to WebAPI is a relevant issue to this topic]

Hixie, Anne: it's pretty tied into everything else.

Hixie suggests having a summary, which can later be used as a tutorial for the spec

Hixie: We need more feedback on this spec anyway

<tantek> got to run - but just wanted to summarize that microformats use of <abbr> is not just for datetimes, but for all situations where there must be a different value presented to computers vs. humans, without making the computer value totally invisible (title attribute permits tooltip inspection at least)

trying to find an editor

<oedipus> GJR gives a STRONG +1 to chaals' comment on WebAPI

<ChrisWilson> [/me I agree with Chaals very much that the relationship with WebAPI is very relevant; vis, I'm not sure why these features are in HTML5 and not within the WebAPI charter.

ACTION Anne and Hixie: draft offline apps intro/tutorial/overview/thing by end of year

<ChrisWilson> ack

<Zakim> ChrisWilson, you wanted to raise David Baron's point about the patent clock starting when a public draft is released.

<chaals> ACTION: Chaals to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action19]

<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Chaals

<ChrisWilson> yeah, that was a while ago. :^/

<ChrisWilson> I recognize you, Chaals - you're hard to miss

Thanks to organizers and participants

RESOLVED

<MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, reload

<trackbot-ng> Reloading Tracker config

<trackbot-ng> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/

<MikeSmith> chaals, please try that action again

<Hixie> anne: when are you leaving town, btw?

<MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status?

<MikeSmith> trackbot-ng, status

meeting closed

<anne> Hixie, my plane leaves at 10PM

<oedipus> GJR thanks all for allowing/permitting/putting-up-with remote participators

<MikeSmith> ACTION: Charles to talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/11/10-html-wg-minutes.html#action20]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-13 - Talk to WebAPI and WAF WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and contribute to the discussion [on Charles McCathieNevile - due 2007-11-17].

<Hixie> anne: k, wanna work on the the note today?

<MikeSmith> chaals - dunno.

<myakura> thanks everyone.

<Hixie> hixie.ch/www/advocacy/offline-webapps/notes

November 2007 HTML WG meeting, final day

Saturday 10 Nov 2007

Attendees