Roland: The FtF is in a week and a half, unfortunately few of us will be there, so Steven and I will get together to decide what to do

Call times

Steven: European time changes next week, watch out!

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to send message about call times [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

Reviews

Steven: Mark, Shane and I agreed to review ITS
... no deadline though

<Roland> ITS Best Practices

<Roland> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0019

Roland: Let's set one

Shane: 15 Nov?

Steven: OK

Mark: OK

Steven: CSS Mobile profile is related to our work on Basic, so it was thought we should review
... deadline Nov 13
... I would like to review

Yam: I will too

<scribe> ACTION: Yam and Steven to review CSS Mobile Profile last call by Nov 13 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-css-mobile-20071019

Aria

Rich: What we have agreed is to have a meeting next week
... with some other groups

<oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0098.html

<oedipus> joint meeting Wednesday, October 31 at 9:00AM EST, 13:00 GMT to build W3C consenus on supporting ARIA more easily and consistently between HTML, XHTML and SVG

Rich: We won't make decisions, only discuss the issues
... it is to get ARIA into HTML, XHTML and SVG
... there is a problem with colon in IE7
... we don't want different solutions for different markups
... I am in favoiur of aria-* for the attributes

<inserted> Scribe: oedipus

Steven: saw RS' message - don't understand -- something to do with CSS and colons

Rich: CSS Selectors cannot be fired if have a colon in IE

Steven: problem with attribute selectors?

Rich: IE has them but buggy
... IE7 has attribute selectors; to trigger, can't have colon delimited attribute; would have to refresh doc to pick up CSS change
... if change value of an ARIA propert (checked from true to false) if use NS attribute, can't set CSS selector to trigger CSS styling; if remove colon and use aria dash, can set CSS Selector that will change with it, but to cause CSS to redraw, need to refresh page via javascript, then picked up

Steven: markup design based on bug in IE7

Rich: 70% use; years before goes away

Steven: heard from ChrisW that IE going to implement CSS 2.1 -- will it be fixed in IE 7.1

Rich: said that about IE7, too

Steven: bug in IE CSS Selectors determining markup?
... IE7 *may*

Rich: had discussions with Marc Silbey of microsoft and email discussions with ChrisW -- no comitment as to date may be fixed; may not even be IE 7.1 could be IE 8

Roland: would be useful to have ChrisW's take on this

Rich: hope call can remain small; ChrisW welcome to call; copied to PFWG

Steven: understand keen getting into firefox3 and next version of opera, so want agreed syntax now, but not convinced that part of the solution is based on a bug in one version of IE -- not sufficient reason for chosing a particular solution

Rich: don't see why needs namespacing? put role in, why not this?

Mark: things getting mixed up; focus on IE7 is irrelevant because no solution for IE6 -- one way of doing ARIA is binding mechanisms using CSS selectors using attributes, not work on IE6, so not a solution for ARIA; colon issue irrelevant -- need another technique to bind to library -- dojo, for example, walks DOM and finds attribute settings

Rich: dramatically increases download time

Mark: makes no sense

Rich: want to get away from writing all this script

Mark: only a solution for IE 7.x plus

Mark: first: naming convention used for attribute based on particular technique in ARIA -- could be lots of ways of implementing ARIA -- one is using CSS selectors, but not only way; doesn't HAVE to be done that way; bigger issue solutions for XML and XHTML -- big hole that is missing -- ghettoizing things; creating walls and wars between groups; should consider a number of namespacing techs; define in more abstract way
... define role so 3 different ways to do same thing and cover all use cases

Roland: what do we need to find a solution to? no real clear statement of problem -- several ways to address

Rich: want consistency across technologies

Roland: one, 2, or three may be acceptable, or may choose 1 out of range of all possible solutions

Steven: advantage of namespacing -- will work in any XML based ML without designing new solution; why not SMIL use ARIA properties -- XML based -- if set of namespaced would work out of box

Rich: current ARIA spec does what you suggest; problem is XHTML serialization issue; want same thing for XHTML5 and HTML5 -- both without namespaces

Steven: XML without namespaces

Roland: chameleon and non-chamelon -- there are 2 ways

Mark: have technology stack -- fairly verbose way of writing things (spell out namespaces, etc.) -- doesn't lend itself to hand-authored content or familiar content; XML namespaces over the top for HTML and XHTML -- not proposing new namespace, but having aria-checkbox instead of putting all into XML namespace

Rich: just put aria in xh role?

Mark: any XML language should be able to list attributes and create validatable language -- StevenP's position; HTML -- why matter? no namespaces, so do what's simplest; 2 ends of spectrum
... firefox supports aria- could work in SVG -- what is point of differentiating the 2?
... not much different than XML events -- namespaced version and non-namespaced version

Steven: we do?

???: can use ev: (e v colon) anywhere around element; ev-event could be global

??: point of using namespacing is that works on DOM level?

Mark: problem XML namespaces trying to solve --

??: convenient version and namespace version -- bring into namespace

???: same for ARIA? attribute checkbox -- maybe should have adopted standard prefix convention

Steven: reinventing namespaces in a way

mark: problem with namespacing is that it imposes technology on people not all software supports

roland: have to explore all alternatives; expand alternatives via 31 october meeting

<inserted> Scribe: Steven

<ShaneM> so is the problem "how do we scope attribute names and element names in a world where namespaces dont work" ?

Roland: Shall we continue, or move on

Mark: We need to be cross-cutting
... take a step back and before we assume it can't be done, we need to ask some hard questions
... then we could make these technologies available in many more places

<oedipus> big plus one to stepping back and trying to adopt a standard prefix convention -- ARIA in DAISY (XML-based)

Roland: We need a solution, how urgent is this?

<oedipus> next generation of DAISY will be CDF for all intents and purposes

Rich: If we miss Firefox 3, we miss a year
... if we agree on aria- and then fix cross-cutting issues, that would be good

Rich: I want to use this as a catalyst
... for instance for RDFa

<oedipus> RDFa been mentioned before as ARIA implementation model

Mark: We shouldn't lose aria:checkbox, but also include the alternate syntax
... we should seriously consider whether to include both versions of the attributes

<oedipus> objection came from SVG

Steven: Wasn't hyphen a problem? I thought some wanted underscore?

Rich: No decision yet

<oedipus> objection to underscore mostly "aesthetic" and "ergonomic" -- no real basis for objecting to underscore

<oedipus> no real arguments against underscore have been advanced

<oedipus> GJR would like to be on call

Roland: Who will participate next week in the call?

Steven: I will

Mark: I will try to be there

Pubs

Roland: About publications and roadmap
... we have others that are ready to go

Roland: What is ready to go?

Shane: A FPWD of access
... do we have a shortname?

Steven: Good question. I will check

<oedipus> plus one to access module public working draft as soon as practicable

<scribe> ACTION: Steven assure there is a shortname for the access module [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]

Shane: Next - XML Events 2, we have a shortname, and a FPWD, so on to the next version

Shane: CURIE draft
... with changes folllowing RDFa
... Those three are ready to turn the crank
... XHTML2 once updated with RDFa can go

Roland: Everyone OK with that?

<oedipus> preliminary PF comments (with accompanying thread) begin at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0028.html

<oedipus> should finalize today at PF telecon (noon boston time today)

Steven: And I will push M12N through its transition, either to CR or PR, depending on whether we can have a zero-length CR

Roland: Shane will ensure that there is an XHTML2 EWD, in order to progress to WD

Shane: There is a whole bunch of stuffr in XHTML2 that defines how RDFa works, and that needs to be pulled and refer to the RDFa draft

<oedipus> similar to TAG complaint about CURIES in XHTML Role?

Mark: What is different in XHTML2 that isn't in the modules

Steven: section etc, and some global attributes like media href src

Shane: [scribe missed]

<oedipus> first forms/html wg joint task force telecon may be 31 october 2007, as well

Mark: We might be able to do an XHTML 1.2 that includes the existing modules

Steven: Then the step to XHTML2 is smaller

Mark: Meta and link everywhere is hard in existing browsers
... but otherwise, I would propose we do it, if it is on our charter

Steven: Well, we produced XHTML1.1+RDFa without a spec
... we have the modules on our charter, we just make a DTD/schema that combines them

Roland: Let's get our modules out, and then decide what we want to do with them

AOB

Rich: Is there any coordination on who owns the XHTML namespace?

Steven: Yes, will be talked about at the TP I think

Shane: It is on the W3M management call today
... But just because it is in the namespace doesn't mean it is in the language

Steven: It is a non-problem really

Mark: Unless someone changes the meaning of something

[ADJOURN]