13:10:47 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:10:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-xhtml-irc
13:10:54 zakim, this will be xhtml
13:10:54 ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 50 minutes
13:12:26 rrsagent, make log public
13:12:41 Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
13:13:14 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0096
13:13:23 Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0096
13:20:55 oedipus has joined #xhtml
13:21:17 Tina has joined #xhtml
13:30:30 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:32:29 myakura has joined #xhtml
13:36:56 ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:48:12 alessio has joined #xhtml
13:49:16 hi
13:58:40 IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
13:58:43 Schnitz has joined #xhtml
13:58:47 +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:58:49 zakim, code?
13:58:49 the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Schnitz
13:59:59 + +013868aaaa
14:00:17 Roland has joined #xhtml
14:00:38 markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
14:00:49 Regrets: Tina
14:01:04 zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:04 ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:06 +Steven
14:01:42 +ShaneM
14:01:43 yamx has joined #xhtml
14:01:43 zakim, codes?
14:01:44 I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
14:01:47 zakim, 013 is Roland
14:01:47 sorry, Steven, I do not recognize a party named '013'
14:01:56 zakim, code?
14:01:56 the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:02:01 + +1.303.410.aabb
14:02:01 zakim, +013 is Roland
14:02:02 +Roland; got it
14:02:09 +??P13
14:02:30 +??P14
14:02:30 zakim, ??p13 is me
14:02:31 +Schnitz; got it
14:02:33 +??P20
14:02:39 zakim, mute me
14:02:39 Schnitz should now be muted
14:02:57 Zakim, ??P15 is Rich
14:02:57 I already had ??P15 as ChriLi, Rich
14:03:05 Zakim, ??P14 is Rich
14:03:05 +Rich; got it
14:03:09 zakim, who is here?
14:03:09 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Steven, ShaneM, +1.303.410.aabb, Schnitz (muted), Rich, ??P20
14:03:10 zakim, ??p20 is Alessio
14:03:14 On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Roland, Schnitz, alessio, ShaneM, myakura, Tina, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Rich, krijnh
14:03:18 +Alessio; got it
14:04:03 -Alessio
14:04:14 Hi Shane
14:04:31 zakim, ??p14 is Alessio
14:04:31 I already had ??P14 as Rich, alessio
14:04:33 +??P20
14:04:43 zakim, ?P20 is yamx
14:04:43 sorry, yamx, I do not recognize a party named '?P20'
14:04:52 zakim, ??P20 is Yamx
14:04:52 +Yamx; got it
14:04:57 zakim, who is here?
14:04:57 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Steven, ShaneM, +1.303.410.aabb, Schnitz (muted), Rich, Yamx
14:04:59 On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Roland, Schnitz, alessio, ShaneM, myakura, Tina, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Rich, krijnh
14:05:11 zakim, Rich is Alessio
14:05:11 +Alessio; got it
14:05:19 zakim, aabb is Rich
14:05:19 +Rich; got it
14:05:24 zakim, who is here?
14:05:24 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Steven, ShaneM, Rich, Schnitz (muted), Alessio, Yamx
14:05:26 On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Roland, Schnitz, alessio, ShaneM, myakura, Tina, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Rich, krijnh
14:06:12 Scribe: Steven
14:06:28 Zakim, mute me
14:06:28 sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:06:37 zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
14:06:37 Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
14:06:57 +??P21
14:07:09 zakim, i am ?
14:07:09 +markbirbeck; got it
14:07:10 GJR *should* be there -- our meeting conflicts with HTML WG meeting
14:08:53 U.S. changes at 2am 4 november 2007
14:09:11 I think japan time does NOT changte next week
14:09:33 the week after that there won't be a call.
14:10:22 Roland: The FtF is in a week and a half, unfortunately few of us will be there, so Steven and I will get together to decide what to do
14:10:38 Topic: Call times
14:10:50 Steven: European time changes next week, watch out!
14:11:03 ACTION Steven: send message about call times
14:11:19 ITS Best Practices
14:11:22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0019
14:11:47 Topic: Reviews
14:12:04 Steven: Mark, Shane and I agreed to review ITS
14:12:08 ... no deadline though
14:12:21 Roland: Let's set one
14:12:36 Shane: 15 Nov?
14:12:39 Steven: OK
14:12:46 Mark: OK
14:13:37 Steven: CSS Mobile profile is realted to our work on Basic, so it was thought we should review
14:14:09 s/real/rela/
14:14:18 ... deadline Nov 13
14:14:26 ... I would like to review
14:14:31 Yam: I will too
14:15:10 ACTION: Yam and Steven to review CSS Mobile Profile last call by Nov 13
14:15:24 http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-css-mobile-20071019
14:15:46 Topic: Aria
14:16:09 Rich: What we have agreed is to have a meeting next week
14:16:16 ... with some other groups
14:16:57 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Oct/0098.html
14:17:01 joint meeting Wednesday, October 31 at 9:00AM EST, 13:00 GMT to build W3C consenus on supporting ARIA more easily and consistently between HTML, XHTML and SVG
14:17:31 Rich: We won't make decisions, only discuss the issues
14:17:44 ... it is to get ARIA into HTML, XHTML and SVG
14:18:05 ... there is a problem with colon in IE7
14:18:23 ... we don't wnat different solutions for different markups
14:18:33 s/wnat/want/
14:18:54 Rich: I am in favoiur of aria-* for the attributes
14:19:23 Steve: saw RS' message - don't understand -- something to do with CSS and colons
14:19:46 Rich: CSS Selectors cannot be fired if have a colon in IE
14:19:53 Steve: problem with attribute selectors?
14:19:59 Rich: IE has them but buggy
14:20:30 Rich: IE7 has attribute selectors; to trigger, can't have colon delimited attribute; would have to refresh doc to pick up CSS change
14:21:25 Rich: if change value of an ARIA propert (checked from true to false) if use NS attribute, can't set CSS selector to trigger CSS styling; if remove colon and use aria dash, can set CSS Selector that will change with it, but to cause CSS to redraw, need to refresh page via javascript, then picked up
14:21:39 Steve: markup design based on bug in IE7
14:21:49 Rich: 70% use; years before goes away
14:22:09 Steve: heard from ChrisW that IE going to implement CSS 2.1 -- will it be fixed in IE 7.1
14:22:18 Rich: said that about IE7, too
14:22:31 Steve: bug in IE CSS Selectors determining markup?
14:22:44 Steve: IE7 *may*
14:23:22 q+
14:23:36 Rich: had discussions with Marc Silbey of microsoft and email discussions with ChrisW -- no comitment as to date may be fixed; may not even be IE 7.1 could be IE 8
14:23:53 ???: would be useful to have ChrisW's take on this
14:24:19 Rich: hope call can remain small; ChrisW welcome to call; copied to PFWG
14:24:30 ??? = Roland
14:25:03 Steve: understand keen getting into firefox3 and next version of opera, so want agreed syntax now, but not convinced that part of the solution is based on a bug in one version of IE -- not sufficient reason for chosing a solution
14:25:16 Rich: don't see why needs namespacing? put role in, why not this?
14:26:35 Roland: things getting mixed up; focus on IE7 is irrelevant because no solution for IE6 -- one way of doing ARIA is binding mechanisms using CSS selectors using attributes, not work on IE6, so not a solution for ARIA; colon issue irrelevant -- need another technique to bind to library -- dojo, for example, walks DOM and finds attribute settings
14:26:41 Rich: dramatically increases download time
14:26:51 Roland: makes no sense
14:26:59 Rich: want to get away from writing all this script
14:27:07 Roland: only a solution for IE 7.x plus
14:27:54 Mark is doing most of the talking here, not Roland
14:28:48 Mark: first: naming convention used for attribute based on particular technique in ARIA -- could be lots of ways of implementing ARIA -- one is using CSS selectors, but not only way; doesn't HAVE to be done that way; bigger issue solutions for XML and XHTML -- big hole that is missing -- ghettoizing things; creating walls and wars between groups; should consider a number of namespacing techs; define in more abstract way
14:29:18 Mark: define role so 3 different ways to do same thing and cover all use cases
14:29:47 ???: what do we need to find a solution to? no real clear statement of problem -- several ways to address
14:29:57 Rich: want consistency across technologies
14:30:17 ???: one, 2, or three may be acceptable, or may choose 1 out of range of all possible solutions
14:31:04 Steve: advantage of namespacing -- will work in any XML based ML without designing new solution; why not SMIL use ARIA properties -- XML based -- if set of namespaced would work out of box
14:31:40 Rich: current ARIA spec does what you suggest; problem is XHTML serialization issue; want same thing for XHTML5 and HTML5 -- both without namespaces
14:31:45 Steve: XML without namespaces
14:31:59 Mark: chameleon and non-chamelon -- there are 2 ways
14:32:18 previous comment roland's
14:34:24 mark: have technology stack -- fairly verbose way of writing things (spell out namespaces, etc.) -- doesn't lend itself to hand-authored content or familiar content; XML namespaces over the top for HTML and XHTML -- not proposing new namespace, but having aria-checkbox instead of putting all into XML namespace
14:34:26 Rich: just put aria in xh role?
14:35:34 mark: any XML language should be able to list attributes and create validatable language -- SteveP's position; HTML -- why matter? no namespaces, so do what's simplest; 2 ends of spectrum
14:36:01 mark: firefox supports aria- could work in SVG -- what is point of differentiating the 2?
14:36:20 mark: not much different than XML events -- namespaced version and non-namespaced version
14:36:23 Steve: we do?
14:37:01 ???: can use ev: (e v colon) anywhere around element; ev-event could be global
14:37:22 ??: point of using namespacing is that works on DOM level?
14:37:52 mark: problem XML namespaces trying to solve --
14:38:18 ??: convenient version and namespace version -- bring into namespace
14:38:50 ???: same for ARIA? attribute checkbox -- maybe should have adopted standard prefix convention
14:38:59 Steve: reinventing namespaces in a way
14:39:17 mark: problem with namespacing is that it imposes technology on people not all software supports
14:39:39 roland: have to explore all alternatives; expand alternatives via 31 october meeting
14:40:05 so is the problem "how do we scope attribute names and element names in a world where namespaces dont work" ?
14:40:09 Roland: Shall we continue, or move on
14:40:22 Mark: We need to be cross-cutting
14:40:41 ... take a step back and before we assume it can't be done, we need to ask some hard questions
14:41:04 ... then we could make these technologies available in many more places
14:41:05 big plus one to stepping back and trying to adopt a standard prefix convention -- ARIA in DAISY (XML-based)
14:41:20 Roland: We need a solution, how urgent is this?
14:41:27 next generation of DAISY will be CDF for all intents and purposes
14:41:33 Rich: If we miss Firefox 3, we miss a year
14:42:02 ... if we agree on aria- and then fix corrs-cutting issues, that would be good
14:42:09 s/corss/cross/
14:42:25 Rich: I want to use this as a catalyst
14:42:32 ... for instance for RDFa
14:42:51 RDFa been mentioned before as ARIA implementation model
14:42:57 Mark: We shouldn't lose aria:checkbox, but also include the alternate syntax
14:43:34 ... we should seriously consider whether to include both versions of the attributes
14:43:47 objection came from SVG
14:44:02 Steven: Wasn't hyphen a problem? I thought some wanted underscore?
14:44:07 Rich: No decision yet
14:44:10 objection to underscore mostly "aesthetic" and "ergonomic" -- no real basis for objecting to underscore
14:44:21 no real arguments against underscore have been advanced
14:44:32 GJR would like to be on call
14:44:42 Roland: Who will participate next week in the call?
14:44:46 Steven: I will
14:44:53 Mark: I will try to be there
14:45:28 Roland: About publications and roadmap
14:45:36 ... we have others that are ready to go
14:45:44 Topic: Pubs
14:45:51 Roland: What is ready to go?
14:45:57 Shane: A FPWD of access
14:46:18 ... do we have a shortname?
14:46:26 Steven: Good question. I will check
14:46:29 plus one to access module public working draft as soon as practicable
14:46:36 ACTION: Steven assure there is a shortname for the access module
14:47:21 Shane: Next - XML Events 2l we have a shortname, and a FPWD, so on to the next version
14:47:31 s/|/,/
14:47:43 Shane: CURIE draft
14:47:50 ... with changes foillowing RDFa
14:48:03 s/foil/foll/
14:48:22 Shane: Those three are ready to turn the crank
14:48:32 .... XHTML2 once updated with RDFa can go
14:48:49 Roland: Everyone OK with that?
14:50:04 preliminary PF comments (with accompanying thread) begin at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2007OctDec/0028.html
14:50:07 should finalize today at PF telecon (noon boston time today)
14:50:11 Steven: And I will push M12N through its transition, either to CR or PR, depending on whether we can have a zero-length CR
14:50:45 Roland: Shane will ensure that there is an XHTML2 EWD, in order to progress to WD
14:51:12 Shane: There is a whole bunch of stuffr in XHTML2 that defines how RDFa works, and that needs to be pulled and refer to the RDFa draft
14:51:24 similar to TAG complaint about CURIES in XHTML Role?
14:52:06 Mark: What is different in XHTML2 that isn't in the modules
14:52:25 Steven: section etc, and some global attributes like media href src
14:52:45 Shane: [scribe missed]
14:53:48 first forms/html wg joint task force telecon may be 31 october 2007, as well
14:53:48 Mark: We might be able to do an XHTML 1.2 that includes the existing modules
14:54:08 Steven: THen the step to XHTML2 is smaller
14:54:14 s/TH/Th/
14:54:29 Mark: Meta and link everywhere is hard in existing browsers
14:54:44 ... but otherwise, I would propose we do it, if it is on our charter
14:56:18 Steven: Well, we produced XHTML1.1+RDFa without a sepc
14:56:38 ... we have the modules on our charter, we just make a DTD/scvhema that combines them
14:56:43 s/sepc/spec/
14:56:46 s/sepc/spec/
14:57:05 s/scvh/sch/
14:57:32 Roland: Let's get our modules out, and then decide what we want to do with them
14:57:36 Topic: AOB
14:59:15 Rich: Is there any coordination on who owns the XHTML namespace?
14:59:24 Steven: Yes, will be talked about at the TP I think
14:59:37 -ShaneM
14:59:39 -Roland
14:59:40 -Alessio
14:59:41 bye
14:59:41 -markbirbeck
14:59:42 -Yamx
14:59:43 -Rich
14:59:44 -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:44 -Steven
14:59:45 -Schnitz
14:59:46 IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
14:59:52 Shane: It is on the W3M management call today
14:59:52 Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, +013868aaaa, Steven, ShaneM, +1.303.410.aabb, Roland, Schnitz, Alessio, Yamx, Rich, markbirbeck
14:59:52 alessio has joined #xhtml
15:00:14 Shane: But just because it is in the namesapce doesn't mean it is in the language
15:00:22 Steven: It is a non-problem really
15:00:32 Mark: Unless someone changes the meaning of something
15:00:43 [ADJOURN]
15:00:49 rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:04:12 markbirbeck and schnitz - is wednesday 31 october, from 1700 UCT to 1800 UCT or 1800 UCT to 1900 UCT work for joint forms task force call?
15:04:58 rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:58