W3C

SWEO Weekly telco

10 Oct 2007

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present: Ivan, Lee, Karen, Benji, Paula, Kingsley, Harry Halpin (guest, University of Edinburgh), Melli, Uldis
Regrets
Susie, Danny, Pasquale
Chair
Ivan
Scribe
Karen

Contents


 GRDDL discussion

Ivan welcomes Harry, guest today. Invites introductions from group.

Harry is from University of Edinburgh, chair of GRDDL Working Group

Karen is development officer, outreach and education

Benjamin Nowak, PHP, works from Germany

Kingsley

Paula works on standardization activities; EU network of excellence; located at Univ. of Munich

Ivan: Let's do GRDDL discussion
... what is needed to be done, Harry?

Harry: GRDDL is now a recommendation; well supported by SW libraries; Beckets and Gena

<kidehen> HarryH: for audience, what is GRDDL?

Harry:Goal is to get GRDDL employed on XML and common formats
... implementations are stable, good reviews from blogosphere
... need to make GRDDL transformations
... for microformats
... stabilize for trust, security, reliability
... XSLT or other language transformation from some HTML into RDF
... GRDDL has mechanism to put XSLT transformation into namespace document
... linked from namespace document; a GRDDL-aware processor checks to see if it's GRDDL enabled, and outputs the RDF automatically
... good for linked project, add more RDF to Semantic Web
... many microformat Web pages that could be RDF-ized
... main selling point of GRDDL is no additional work for the document producers and consumers
... if they use GRDDL enabled software
... I can list a number of vocabularies, I'd like to hear what people are using

Ivan: In HTML world, you can also use the profile URI for the same purpose

Harry: Yes, you can consider a profile URI similar to a name space document
... you have to have HTML as root name space
... you can put a profile attribute in head, point to URI
... say, "there is more customized information"
... you can also put GRDDL transformations there

Ivan: welcomes Melli to call

Melli: With database semantic technologies group at Oracle; we support W3C SW standards like RDF and OWL

Ivan welcomes Leo to call

Leo: Do SW research, lead governing task in SWEO

Ivan welcomes Uldis from DERI Galway

Uldis: Working on Semantically interlinked online communities

Harry: One of question brought up in GRDDL work
... what Oracle's position is?
... GRDDL being new W3C standard to convert legacy data to RDF

<kidehen> HarryH: provide test suite URI

Melli: Yes, we have talked about it
... currently we are not looking at it, but hope to look at it soon

Harry: Thanks
... Question to audience, what do you have RDF transformations for already?

Ivan: any takers?

Leo: ebXML

<HarryH> ebXML?

Leo: Electronic Business Exchange Format

<HarryH> RDF transform?

Leo: business cases are interesting

<kidehen> HarryH: XBRL

Leo: we could not talk about doing geo or photos

<HarryH> geo XML format?

Harry: Geo XML format is standardized?

<leobard> geordf is from w3c

Geo microformat

Ivan: Kingsley put in XBRL

Harry: Do we have a transform for XBRL?

XBRL ontology; we're working on this in the background

...you have these XML schemas for these XML documents
... we don't have anything right now

Karen: mentions Graham Rong at MIT Sloan's interest in XBRL

Kingsley: How can we get W3C involved?
... I'm doing this with Graham; I met him at SemWeb gathering
... he is not further than other participants in XBRL ontology
... Kingsley to send Karen email on XBRL subject

<kidehen> bengee

Bengee: Can we provide hooks to non-XSLT transformations?
... build from broken HTML; apply a parser like transformation; written in PHP

Harry: Throw me a link to that
... We support XSLT because that's what everyone was using
... we could use PHP methodology to test

Ivan: Do we have a GRDDL engine?

Harry: No, all the test cases are written using XSLT; I can ask Andy and Dave Beckett
... not sure how difficult it would be to call an [] processor

Bengee: If it doesn't work; one issue I had was deciding how to transform microformats to RDF
... from SWEO perspective, we could point people tomappings for selective vocabularies; get the same output

Harry: Microformats in theory, no resistence from community to use GRDDL; but what needs to be done is stabilizing the RDF mapping of the microformats

<HarryH> hCal microformat

Harry: often the RDF vocabulary is unclear

<HarryH> RDFCalendar

Harry: map into RDF calendar
... I haven't seen much coming out
... wonder if SWEO is monitoring that

Kingsley: I use it

Ivan: Action Bengee, please send references on PHP to Harry

<ivan> ACTION: bengee to send references of the PHP stuff to Harry [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action01]

Bengee: Are you using XSLT?

Kingsley: We start off with GRDDL-based; also home-grown

<HarryH> RDFCalendar W3C Note: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfcal/

<leobard> just for the note: with Bengee's thing, GRDDL may not be needed at all, you just could add a link "REL" on top, adding the current URL as referrer/parameter for Bengees web-service

Kingsley: and [?] based; we'll expose what we're mapping to in a document

Leo: Two things:

<kidehen> bengee: I'll put out Sponger paper in the next day or so

Leo: All GRDDL is about transforming links on top of document
... add these transform links to document
... add transform statement; then point to Web service with Web link
... and point to Bengee's Web Service; user agent will go up rail and get transformation from there

<kidehen> bengee: it will contain list of GRDDL-XSLT, HomeGrown-XSLT, and our native PL RDFizers

Leo: As SWEO, what people need to do is add GRDDL to their Web sites
... we need people need to add transform links; is this correct?

Harry: you can put link to XSLT
... get everyone to support that; name space document so you don't have to add a transform
... transform to RDF without additional work

Leo: Inform people about name space document

Harry: may be easier to do that than go after document producers directly
... get network effect of key users

<HarryH> Atom - Danny Ayers

Harry: Danny Ayers is looking at Atom
... Dublin Core would support

<HarryH> Dublin core said they support it..

<HarryH> hCard

Harry: already supports it

Ivan: Where are we with stable V card?

Harry: I think we are close
... also microformats I'm not sure how to map

<HarryH> hReview

<HarryH> Tom Heath

Harry: we need an RDF vocabulary for Hreview

<HarryH> Tagging

Harry: RDF needed
... Tom Gruber working on that

<HarryH> Tom Gruber TagCommons SCOT project

<kidehen> HarryH: SCOT for tags

<HarryH> relTag

Harry: Go after the low hanging fruit

<leobard> we also have skos for tags

<HarryH> geo

<HarryH> geoRDF stable?

<HarryH> URI?

<uldis> http:/scot-project.org/

<leobard> http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#

Harry: What's lacking is XSLTs and stabilization

Ivan: What should be done to get the word out?
... I maintain a site on Semantic Web tools
... no reference right now on GRDDL
... you have collected information on GRDDL tools; good to put on site

<ivan> sem web tools

Ivan: Put a reference to other pages, or incorporate to this
... we try to keep this site up to date
... start from there, find good information on which microformats are properly transformable

Harry: On GRDDL home page

<HarryH> GRDDL WG: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/

<leobard> hay, are there any pointy powerpoints about GRDDL?

Harry: get to GRDDL primer

<HarryH> GRDDL Primer: http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/

Harry: has lots of examples of things people can run using online Web Services
... also have a tutorial
... Dan Connolly and I did
... welcome to edit slides

<HarryH> GRDDL Tutorial: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/tut7/gtut#(1)

Harry: also links to papers
... that use GRDDL; like Henry Thomson's work; lots of educational material
... key adopters and blogs to get the word out

<HarryH> GRDDLize any pages you have as well?

Ivan: Specifically, who and how should we move on about tools on tool page?
... will you take action?

Harry: Tools; there is a list of GRDDL implementations

<HarryH> http://esw.w3.org/topic/GrddlImplementations

Harry: What more precisely do you need?

Ivan: Many people start with Semantic Web tools
... we need a reference to link the tools; wiki page
... also have somewhere a list of those microformats
... that are GRDDL-able

Harry: Yes, we can link that

Ivan: We should put this information into our database, Leo

Leo: Yes, no problem; we can do this

<ivan> ACTION: harry extending tool list on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action02]

<ivan> ACTION: leo look at the page of grddable microformats [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action03]

<HarryH> GRDDL Mappings: http://esw.w3.org/topic/CustomRdfDialects

Ivan: Danny is looking at collection of tutorials; please talk with him
... Does anyone know the site that Danny started?

Leo: yes

<leobard> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SweoIG/TaskForces/InfoGathering/RecommendedTutorials

Ivan: So we begin to collect GRDDL tutorials
... what else?
... there is now a GRDDL button from the logo project

Harry: Can someone send me the link?

<ivan> logos

Harry: all the SW logos
... separate work on application of logos
... What else can SWEO do?
... Pass off some key contact people to SWEO
... Kingsley, XBRL project perhaps?

Kingsley: We need to get URIs done for companies; stock exchange symbols for example; this is complicated work
... we are plodding along; it's a large project

Harry: It would be useful to monitor progress of GRDDL-izing Atom
... Danny Ayers is key person for that

Ivan: The current charter of SWEO runs out in March 2008
... how information is maintained long-term is another discussion
... we need to revisit SWEO next steps

Harry: Are there other SWEO deliverables?

Leo: What we publish, and what will outlive us are the use cases and case studies
... we could blog more

<HarryH> GRDDL Use-Cases: http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-scenarios/

<HarryH> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-scenarios/#scheduling_use_case

<ivan> SWEO Use Cases

<HarryH> Mixing Reviews with GRDDL: http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/#hotel

Ivan: We have real deployed SW applications, use cases
... if you know good input for that, based on GRDDL that would be great
... our current use cases are based on RDF and OWL, but nothing based on GRDDL
... it would be great to have a GRDDL case to add

<HarryH> SWEO: outreach?

Harry: Part of job as SWEO is outreach, yes?

<HarryH> To outreach to actually makes these use-cases.

<HarryH> Revyu

Harry: by Tom Heath

<HarryH> Someone to stabilize for RDF review vocabulary

Harry: His site uses Microformats
... that would make mixing reviews a real-world use case with real live data
... anyone could use and find useful

<HarryH> http://revyu.com/

Harry: As GRDDL winds down, we have limited resources now; perhaps someone can contact Tom

Ivan: We are talking different things

<leobard> we could publish a challenge: grddlize a website and prove of some useful thing that can now be done

<HarryH> HP does with GRDDL internally?

Ivan: In which operation is GRDDL already used?

<HarryH> The only organization that uses GRDDL internally is the W3C.

<HarryH> Outreach the problem.

<HarryH> GRDDL Rec status.

<kidehen> HarryH: OpenLink uses GRDDL in it's Sponger Middleware

Ivan: It just reached rec status; if SWEO had spare cycles, it would be good use of time
... I don't know of some

Leo: What we could do is to
... pose another challenge for a community project
... people blog about it

Harry: There are several large calendaring sites that use Microformats

Kingsley: Upcoming, Eventful for example

<HarryH> Eventful and Upcoming use micro-format?

<HarryH> Use the profile URI in their website?

Harry: Yes, these are microformat based; could be useful to ask if they want to use profile URI in Web site

<HarryH> That would be more real data.

Leo: One page abstract of how it works would be good
... then we publish this as a challenge

<bengee> we need the profile URLs first, though

Leo: Hope a small hacker does it

<bengee> sweo is not really producing code

Kingsley: I think there is a Firefox plug-in for GRDDL?

<HarryH> Firefox plug-in creators in SWEO - Operator is supported?

Harry: Another way to do it, contact people who run Eventful and Upcoming directly
... they have contact pages

<HarryH> Contact Eventful and Upcoming.org directly?

Harry: No, we don't have personal contacts to them

<leobard> +1 for contacting the eventful and upcoming people, that's nice

Kingsley: What I think we need is somebody to do a plain English demonstration
... of how GRDDL exposes the dataweb

<kidehen> all: http://www.openlinksw.com/dataspace/kidehen@openlinksw.com/weblog/kidehen@openlinksw.com%27s%20BLOG%20%5B127%5D/1258

Kingsley: here is link of guy

<kidehen> http://www.commoncraft.com/video-social-networking

Kingsley: Let's look at social networking
... I spoke with this guy
... If we can get him to take something simple to demonstrate

<HarryH> Contact Eventful: http://about.eventful.com/contact.html

Kingsley: Show how SW can crystalize
... that would be great education and outreach
... watch the clips

Harry: Yes, I'll look
... One-page challenge; contact people would be good

Ivan: So question is, who is that?
... who can write this challenge text?

Kingsley: I don't think that's the issue
... Impact of GRDDL is not new, just needs more collateral

Harry: People just need to know about it

Kingsley: Challenges are not way to convey the message; it's about communication

Ivan: You have to have people know how to use it in practice
... challenge idea is that someone comes up with a challenging implementation of some ideas; then add those lines

Kingsley: I don't know how many people on this call have looked at the GRDDL work
... I don't know who will respond
... who can produce anything better?

Harry: Get current Web sites that are Microformat supported, you can blog about it

Kingsley: Get users to adopt, have to show value

Harry: XTech used it after we contacted them
... they GRDDL-enabled their pages

<HarryH> http://2007.xtech.org/public/news

Harry: To them it's a few minutes of their time

<HarryH> Adding profile @?

<HarryH> Very simple

Ivan: Problem is XTech; those are hackers; we have to convince people outside that circle
... that it's worthwhile to do; provide convincing things they can do with it
... challenge idea of Leo is in this direciton

Harry: I have five more minutes
... I would support a challenge if someone else writes it up
... someone should ping players who support microformats; ask to add profile to their site

<kidehen> HarryH: Do you have list of web hubs that you would like to incorporate GRDDL? A list will help

Harry: If anyone does get XSLT; read primer, how to GRDDL upgrade XML vocabulary
... Eventful is first on my list to contact

<kidehen> Ivan: ditto re. players that you think would need convincing etc?

Harry: Flickr supports

<bengee> one problem is that even individual (low-size) sites are reluctant to add profile URLs to their personal mf-enabled sites

<HarryH> Revyu?

Ivan: Who thinks they can write the challenge text?
... or we can ask on mailing list
... Bengee, can you write email to SWEO list?

<kidehen> HarryH: Revyu we can deal with once we have the Ontology etc..

<HarryH> LinkedIn uses hResume, but we don't have a Resume RDF vocabulary to my knowledge..

<scribe> ACTION: Leo to write to SWEOmailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action04]

Ivan: Next, we have to write contact persons

<kidehen> HarryH: Uldis has a Vocabulary that may be useful

<bengee> we need a non-microformats use case that shows GRDDL's utility

Kingsley: Give me the names and I can contact them
... make a list

Harry: Dan Connolly has talked to people at LinkedIn

<HarryH> Revyu, LinkedIn, Eventful, Flickr. I just don't know names. I'd e-mail Dan Connolly and e-mail Brian Suda about the Web 2.0 services.

Ivan: Would it be possible to put it on the GRDDL group call?

Harry: What's needed is for one person to be the contact point
... keep pressing this person

<HarryH> We'll try to get a list from the next GRDDL WG.

<scribe> ACTION: Harry will take to next GRDDL meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action05]

Ivan thanks Harry

Logos

Ivan: SW logos are out
... I have updated the Activity page
... I'll add it to the blog
... this is done, it's a good job
... meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: bengee to send references of the PHP stuff to Harry [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: harry extending tool list on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Harry will take to next GRDDL meeting [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: leo look at the page of grddable microformats [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Leo to write to SWEOmailing list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/10-sweo-minutes.html#action04]
 
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$Date: 2007/10/11 08:05:42 $