<trackbot-ng> Date: 09 October 2007

<Magnus> somebody tell zakim that +46.. is me

<scribe> scribe: rob

<scribe> scribenick: rob

administrivia

<j1> who is on list

Rhys: please sign up to CT mailing list [6] using link [8]

<j1> -> mailto:public-bpwg-ct-request@w3.org?subject=subscribe subscribe to list

Problem Statement

<j1> [latest draft is 1f]

<Rhys> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/ProblemStatement/071008

Rhys: close to agreement on this
... Rotan had qn on performance overhead

Jo: belongs in statement of principles
... in the guidelines doc

Sean: where was the qn from Rotan posted?

Jo: wasn't posted to the list - that explains why you'd not seen it

Rhys: I'll respond to Rotan directly

<Rotan> thanks

Rhys: tracker shows open issue 221 Brian Sullivan

Jo: is relevant but had no response from Brian or anyone else about the changes Jo's made

<j1> jo's comments on Bryan's comments

Jo: where it says suggested change from...to is response to this issue

Rhys: for things not in Problem Statement, do they naturally live in Guidelines?

Jo: no
... Brian's change not justified. Brian hasn't responded to Jo's response

Rhys: given time elapsed for Brian to respond inclined to propose Problem Statement goes to wider working group on Thursday

<Magnus> +1

Rhys: but Brian doesn't seem to be on the CT mailing list

Jo: to become a Note, do we need to publish a Working Draft now anyway?
... most polite approach is report comments to Brian directly
... and hold-off working group distribution to a week Thursday

<jo> ACTION: Jo to forward his comments to Bryan to request feedback if possible by Thursday [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-574 - Forward his comments to Bryan to request feedback if possible by Thursday [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-10-16].

Rhys: 3 more open actins are complete

c/actins/actions/

<jo> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Request BPWG to request transition of Problem Statement to W3C Note - modulo no objections fromBryan

Rhys: given Nigel Choi's public feedback, should this be Working Draft or a Note?

Jo: his comments taken into account

<Andrew> +1

<kemp> +1

+1

<jo> RESOLUTION: Request BPWG to request transition of Problem Statement to W3C Note - modulo no objections from Bryan

Guidelines Document

Rhys: tracker http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12
... Nigel Choi's commented on how to taylor guidelines
... Jo raised qn of alternate representation discovery
... Jo also raised a shopping list of things to consider

<jo> [another thing to consider is -> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3507 Internet Content Adaptation Protocol (ICAP)

<Andrew> +q

Rhys: so do we have a fairly complete list of material to begin developing guidelines from?

<jo> raised by Novarra to Philipp at MoMo London last night]

Jo: firstly we need to encourage members to contribute more and more quickly than so far
... second there are a wide range of use-cases and techniques to look at and how existing servers will respond to them
... our feet are in mid-air if we can't kick the tyres on ideas, experiment and know what will happen with proposed changes

Rhys: ie make sure we don't break things

Jo: worst thing would be for guidelines to recommend something that breaks services. we have a lot of work and experimentation to do
... so discussion so far seems inadequate

andrew: I'm collecting Vodafone ideas together 1st before contributing here

<jo> +1 to not causing any more confusion!

andrew: and agrees with Jo need to test and experiment these things

DKA: experimentation sounds a good approach

<Rotan> Question: would any proxy vendor be willing to work with origin server vendor to do such experiements in live environments?

DKA: with similar controversial proposals before have put up demo sites and had people test with lots of browsers
... byt in this case it's servers we have to test - and that's harder

c/but/but/

<jo> [think that dotMobi would be willing to help with this, think also that there are some members that are well known for th scale of their crawling!]

<kemp> i would be interested in helping with experiments where possible

<DKA> Is there an open source "reference platform" (such as Apache running in a proxy mode) that could be used to trial any of the proposed techniques?

Rhys: good starting point would be draft textual proposals that the public can comment on
... which may result in narrowing down to a reduced number of proposals to experiment with in practice
... have we pushed the boundaries yet or are there new ideas we haven't seen yet?

Andrew: most of my ideas already voiced by others - and thanks for everyone's contributions so far

Rhys: can we enumerate the ideas so far?

Jo: yes, but let's define the problem space 1st
... matrix of participants in the delivery chain and who's aware of Guidelines and can adapt sensitively to them and who can't

Rhys: are we providing a number of independent guidelines that can make things better and not break anything? or are there guidelines that only work if more than one participant plays together?
... ie of the 8 possible scenarios are there 3 or 4 that are the important ones?

<Andrew> also case of multiple CT proxies

Magnus: agree only a few important use-cases
... map out what each participant says to each other and the exceptions (eg when a participant is completely unaware of that's going on)

<Zakim> DKA, you wanted to urge keeping the scope to when you have at least one transforming element in the chain. and to wonder if there is any difference between the case where you have

c/that's/what's/

DKA: urge against expanding scope

<DKA> cool

DKA: but do recognise the need for the few use-cases (eg multiple transformation proxies)

Andrew: seen multiple transformation proxies already, essential to address this

<SeanPatterson> +1 to not expanding the scope of the task force

Magnus: also essential is where origin-server can provide perfectly suitable content for itself

Rhys: should concentrate on where participants are aware and can interact appropriately

<Zakim> andrew, you wanted to discuss the case of ct proxies

<Rotan> Thought at first that "Vary: *" might do that (indicate support for all context types) but also think that this would be valid for blocking servers too (unfortunately). How can we indicate that server gives *good* content for all devices? (i.e. not blocking)

Jo: this assumes dumb hosts and adapting proxies. And that non-aware, non-adapting hosts are a significant use-case
... need to characterise behaviours of all the participants of varying awareness to ensure we're not dammed if we do and dammed if we don't

Rhys: so we have to analyse all options with a view of if it still works (or at least doesn't break anything) when participents in the delivery chain are not aware of any of the Guidelines

Rob: good approach and the matrix Jo suggests is a good way to concentrate the mind

Rhys: can someone enumerate the threads already proposed? in a mail to the list?

Jo: I will

Rhys: thanks Jo

<jo> ACTION: Jo to enumerate techniques already identified with pointers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-575 - Enumerate techniques already identified with pointers [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-10-16].

<jo> s/somebody tell zakim that +46.. is me//

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Found Scribe: rob
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Default Present: Rhys, Aaron, +46.3.17.47.aaaa, ROb, DKA, Andrew, shah, Magnus, SeanPatterson, +035318aabb, Matt, jo
Present: Rhys Aaron +46.3.17.47.aaaa ROb DKA Andrew shah Magnus SeanPatterson +035318aabb Matt jo
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Oct/0019.html
Found Date: 9 Oct 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html
People with action items: jo