14:02:36 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 14:02:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-irc 14:02:38 RRSAgent, make logs member 14:02:41 Zakim, this will be BPWG 14:02:41 ok, trackbot-ng, I see MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM already started 14:02:43 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 14:02:43 zakim, who is here? 14:02:43 On the phone I see Rhys, Aaron, +46.3.17.47.aaaa, +079320aadd, DKA 14:02:44 On IRC I see RRSAgent, jo, rob, DKA, SeanPatterson, Magnus, kemp, Rhys, matt, Zakim, trackbot-ng 14:02:45 Date: 09 October 2007 14:02:49 +Andrew 14:02:54 rrsagent, make logs public 14:03:10 zakim, mute me 14:03:11 somebody tell zakim that +46.. is me 14:03:11 DKA should now be muted 14:03:16 zakim, code 14:03:16 I don't understand 'code', jo 14:03:19 +shah 14:03:20 zakim, aadd is rob 14:03:21 +rob; got it 14:03:24 zakim, code? 14:03:24 the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 14:03:39 zakim, aaaa is Magnus 14:03:40 +Magnus; got it 14:03:51 zakim, who is here? 14:03:51 On the phone I see Rhys, Aaron, Magnus, rob, DKA (muted), +078997aaee, +1.630.414.aaff 14:03:53 Andrew has joined #bpwg 14:03:57 On IRC I see RRSAgent, jo, rob, DKA, SeanPatterson, Magnus, kemp, Rhys, matt, Zakim, trackbot-ng 14:05:01 j1 has joined #bpwg 14:05:06 zakim, code? 14:05:06 the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), j1 14:05:18 zakim, aaff is SeanPatterson 14:05:18 +SeanPatterson; got it 14:05:43 + +035318aabb 14:05:50 zakim, aabb is me 14:05:50 sorry, j1, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' 14:05:57 zakim, you kill me 14:05:57 I don't understand 'you kill me', j1 14:06:11 zakim, who is here? 14:06:11 On the phone I see Rhys, Aaron, Magnus, rob, DKA (muted), +078997aaee, SeanPatterson, +035318aagg 14:06:13 On IRC I see j1, Andrew, RRSAgent, jo, rob, DKA, SeanPatterson, Magnus, kemp, Rhys, matt, Zakim, trackbot-ng 14:06:26 zakim, why did you say I was aabb when I am aagg? 14:06:26 I don't understand your question, j1. 14:06:35 zakim, aagg is me 14:06:35 +j1; got it 14:06:55 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Oct/0019.html 14:07:09 Zakim, aaee is me 14:07:09 +Andrew; got it 14:07:32 scribe: rob 14:07:38 scribenick: rob 14:07:50 topic: administrivia 14:08:52 -> http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/MailingListQuery.pl?queryList=public-bpwg-ct who is on list 14:09:12 Rhys: please sign up to CT mailing list [6] using link [8] 14:09:19 -> mailto:public-bpwg-ct-request@w3.org?subject=subscribe subscribe to list 14:09:50 Topic: Problem Statement 14:09:58 [latest draft is 1e] 14:10:05 s/1e/1f/ 14:10:05 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/ProblemStatement/071008 14:10:36 Rhys: close to agreement on this 14:10:50 ... Rotan had qn on performance overhead 14:11:21 Jo: belongs in statement of principles 14:12:18 ... in the guidelines doc 14:13:02 Sean: where was the qn from Rotan posted? 14:13:44 Rotan has joined #bpwg 14:13:45 Jo: wasn't posted to the list - that explains why you'd not seen it 14:13:47 zakim, dial matt-voip 14:13:47 ok, matt; the call is being made 14:13:49 +Matt 14:15:00 Rhys: I'll respond to Rotan directly 14:15:19 thanks 14:15:32 Rhys: tracker shows open issue 221 Brian Sullivan 14:16:38 Jo: is relevant but had no response from Brian or anyone else about the changes Jo's made 14:17:24 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2007Sep/0033.html jo's comments on Bryan's comments 14:18:01 ... where it says suggested change from...to is response to this issue 14:18:29 Rhys: for things not in Problem Statement, do they naturally live in Guidelines? 14:18:32 Jo: no 14:19:17 ... Brian's change not justified. Brian hasn't responded to Jo's response 14:20:15 Rhys: given time elapsed for Brian to respond inclined to propose Problem Statement goes to wider working group on Thursday 14:20:25 +1 14:21:37 ... but Brian doesn't seem to be on the CT mailing list 14:22:28 Jo: to become a Note, do we need to publish a Working Draft now anyway? 14:23:22 Jo: most polite approach is report comments to Brian directly 14:23:53 ... and hold-off working group distribution to a week Thursday 14:23:57 jo has joined #bpwg 14:24:02 ACTION: Jo to forward his comments to Bryan to request feedback if possible by Thursday 14:24:02 Created ACTION-574 - Forward his comments to Bryan to request feedback if possible by Thursday [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-10-16]. 14:24:24 zakim, who is here? 14:24:24 On the phone I see Rhys, Aaron, Magnus, rob, DKA (muted), Andrew, SeanPatterson, j1, Matt 14:24:26 On IRC I see jo, Rotan, Andrew, RRSAgent, rob, DKA, SeanPatterson, Magnus, kemp, Rhys, matt, Zakim, trackbot-ng 14:24:33 zakim, j1 is me 14:24:33 +jo; got it 14:25:19 Rhys: 3 more open actins are complete 14:25:38 c/actins/actions/ 14:26:40 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Request BPWG to request transition of Problem Statement to W3C Note - modulo no objections fromBryan 14:27:22 Rhys: given Nigel Choi's public feedback, should this be Working Draft or a Note? 14:27:34 Jo: his comments taken into account 14:27:36 +1 14:27:38 +1 14:27:39 +1 14:27:43 RESOLUTION: Request BPWG to request transition of Problem Statement to W3C Note - modulo no objections from Bryan 14:28:14 Topic: Guidelines Document 14:29:28 q+ 14:29:47 Rhys: tracker http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/products/12 14:30:13 ... Nigel Choi's commented on how to taylor guidelines 14:30:32 ... Jo raised qn of alternate representation discovery 14:30:54 ... Jo also raised a shopping list of things to consider 14:31:04 [another thing to consider is -> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3507 Internet Content Adaptation Protocol (ICAP) 14:31:36 +q 14:31:38 ... so do we have a fairly complete list of material to begin developing guidelines from? 14:31:46 raised by Novarra to Philipp at MoMo London last night] 14:32:53 Jo: firstly we need to encourage members to contribute more and more quickly than so far 14:33:36 ... second there are a wide range of use-cases and techniques to look at and how existing servers will respond to them 14:34:23 ... our feet are in mid-air if we can't kick the tyres on ideas, experiment and know what will happen with proposed changes 14:34:46 Rhys: ie make sure we don't break things 14:35:38 Jo: worst thing would be for guidelines to recommend something that breaks services. we have a lot of work and experimentation to do 14:36:00 q? 14:36:07 ack jo 14:36:07 ackme 14:36:10 ack andrew 14:36:13 s/ackme// 14:36:14 ... so discussion so far seems inadequate 14:36:56 andrew: I'm collecting Vodafone ideas together 1st before contributing here 14:36:57 +1 to not causing any more confusion! 14:37:09 q? 14:37:17 q+ 14:37:25 ack me 14:37:26 ... and agrees with Jo need to test and experiment these things 14:37:49 DKA: experimentation sounds a good approach 14:38:37 Question: would any proxy vendor be willing to work with origin server vendor to do such experiements in live environments? 14:38:56 ... with similar contovertial proposals before have put up demo sites and had people test with lots of browsers 14:39:23 ... byt in this case it's servers we have to test - and that's harder 14:39:29 c/byt/but/ 14:39:48 [think that dotMobi would be willing to help with this, think also that there are some members that are well known for th scale of their crawling!] 14:40:19 i would be interested in helping with experiments where possible 14:40:39 Is there an open source "reference platform" (such as Apache running in a proxy mode) that could be used to trial any of the proposed techniques? 14:40:51 Rhys: good starting point would be draft textual proposals that the public can comment on 14:40:51 zakim, mute me 14:40:51 DKA should now be muted 14:41:31 ... which may result in narrowing down to a reduced number of proposals to experiment with in practice 14:42:08 ... have we pushed the boundaries yet or are there new ideas we haven't seen yet? 14:42:48 Andrew: most of my ideas already voiced by others - and thanks for everyone's contributions so far 14:43:06 Rhys: can we enumerate the ideas so far? 14:43:24 Jo: yes, but let's define the problem space 1st 14:44:30 ... matrix of participants in the delivery chain and who's aware of Guidelines and can adapt sensitively to them and who can't 14:45:38 q+ 14:46:59 q+ to urge keeping the scope to when you have at least one transforming element in the chain. 14:47:07 Rhys: are we providing a number of independent guidelines that can make things better and not break anything? or are there guidelines that only work if more than one participant plays together? 14:47:42 ... ie of the 8 possible scenarios are there 3 or 4 that are the important ones? 14:48:35 +q also case of multiple CT proxies 14:48:37 q+ to wonder if there is any difference between the case where you have one intermediary (proxy) and more than one intermediary? 14:49:05 Magnus: agree only a few important use-cases 14:49:06 q+ also case of multiple CT proxies 14:49:10 q+ andrew to discuss the case of ct proxies 14:50:19 ... map out what each participant says to each other and the exceptions (eg when a participant is completely unaware of that's going on) 14:50:26 ack me 14:50:27 DKA, you wanted to urge keeping the scope to when you have at least one transforming element in the chain. and to wonder if there is any difference between the case where you have 14:50:29 ack magnus 14:50:29 ... one intermediary (proxy) and more than one intermediary? 14:50:33 q? 14:50:38 c/that's/what's/ 14:51:05 DKA: urge against expanding scope 14:51:35 zakim, mute me 14:51:35 DKA should now be muted 14:51:49 q? 14:51:55 q+ 14:51:57 cool 14:52:10 ... but do recognise the need for the few use-cases (eg multiple transformation proxies) 14:52:51 Andrew: seen multiple transformation proxies already, essential to address this 14:53:29 +1 to not expanding the scope of the task force 14:53:46 Magnus: also essential is where origin-server can provide perfectly suitable content for itself 14:55:01 q? 14:55:10 Rhys: should concentrate on where participants are aware and can interact appropriately 14:55:11 ack and 14:55:11 andrew, you wanted to discuss the case of ct proxies 14:55:37 q- 14:55:56 Thought at first that "Vary: *" might do that (indicate support for all content types) but also think that this would be valid for blocking servers too (unfortunately). How can we indicate that server gives *good* content for all devices? (i.e. not blocking) 14:56:12 Jo: this assumes dumb hosts and adapting proxies. And that non-aware, non-adapting hosts are a significant use-case 14:56:23 s/content types/context types/ 14:56:52 ack me 14:58:26 ... need to characterise behaviours of all the participants of varying awareness to ensure we're not dammed if we do and dammed if we don't 15:00:15 Rhys: so we have to analyse all options with a view of if it still works (or at least doesn't break anything) when participents in the delivery chain are not aware of any of the Guidelines 15:00:22 q? 15:01:06 Rob: good approach and the matrix Jo suggests is a good way to concentrate the mind 15:01:45 Rhys: can someone enumerate the threads already proposed? in a mail to the list? 15:01:53 Jo: I will 15:02:01 Rhys: thanks Jo 15:02:07 ACTION: Jo to enumerate techniques already identified with pointers 15:02:07 Created ACTION-575 - Enumerate techniques already identified with pointers [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-10-16]. 15:02:19 -Magnus 15:02:20 -DKA 15:02:21 -Rhys 15:02:23 -Aaron 15:02:23 zakim, drop me 15:02:24 -SeanPatterson 15:02:26 jo is being disconnected 15:02:27 -jo 15:02:35 zakim, who is here 15:02:39 -Matt 15:02:41 jo, you need to end that query with '?' 15:02:41 quit Goodbye! 15:02:51 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:53 -rob 15:03:05 On the phone I see Andrew 15:03:15 -Andrew 15:03:15 zakim, drop andrew 15:03:17 MWI_BPWG(BCTF)10:00AM has ended 15:03:19 Attendees were Rhys, Aaron, +46.3.17.47.aaaa, ROb, DKA, Andrew, shah, Magnus, SeanPatterson, +035318aabb, Matt, jo 15:03:24 sorry, jo, I don't know what conference this is 15:03:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html jo 15:04:28 rrsagent, off 15:06:46 Chair: Rhys 15:07:57 rob has left #bpwg 15:08:44 s/contovertial/controversial/ 15:08:56 s/byt/but/ 15:09:18 s/+q// 15:09:58 s/somebody tell zakim that +46.. is me// 15:10:36 s/quit Goodbye!// 15:10:43 rrsagent,draft minutes 15:10:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html jo 17:05:44 zakim, bye 17:05:44 Zakim has left #bpwg 17:05:52 rrsagent, bye 17:05:52 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-actions.rdf : 17:05:52 ACTION: Jo to forward his comments to Bryan to request feedback if possible by Thursday [1] 17:05:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-irc#T14-24-02 17:05:52 ACTION: Jo to enumerate techniques already identified with pointers [2] 17:05:52 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/09-bpwg-irc#T15-02-07