See also: IRC log
<barry_b> Hello, yes, but only once!
<barry_b> I am from DERI Innsbruck
<barry_b> Zakim aaaa is me
<ChrisW> barry, you need a comma after zakim
<barry_b> @chris, thanks.
<barry_b> (Apolgies, headset problems)
<csma> scribe: Barry Bishop
<csma> scribenick: barry-b
<ChrisW> scribenick: barry_b
<AxelPolleres> igor, I am pretty sure that I was the IP dialer ;-)
<ChrisW> try to raise your hand axel
<AxelPolleres> raise hand
<AxelPolleres> fine, sorry for the confusion.
Start: Christian chair
Debrief of F2F
+Sandro to discuss naming conventions
1.Admin actions
<scribe> ACTION: 341 to on Chris complete? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-rif-minutes.html#action01]
Action closed
<ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept minute of Sept 25th telecon
2. Liason
<ChrisW> csma: PRR is now an "alpha" spec
Christian: Clean up draft for
specification form
... Non-normative info to be removed(?)
Next F2F 5 & 6 in Boston
Deadline for hotel registration is tomorrow!
Hotel will be full.
Debriefing....
<csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F7
Propose explaing how it worked and what we did (different to agenda)
Planned to discuss syntax, but realy discussed abstract syntax and how many sytaxe.
syntax 'triangle', but nothing resolved on the first day.
Resolved presentation syntax. Remove ASN from BLD
Keep presentation and mapping to XML
Afternoon, semantic issues discussed XML schema and external data schema & RDF compatibility
No resolutions.
Discussed frames, is it needed? Not resolved
Classification syntax to be part of 2nd working draft
2nd day:
Morning: planned more of the same to push 2nd part of BLD
Started with abstract syntax
Change spectral model of rules
Moved to discussion of XML syntax (most important)
Sandro: Use conventional XML syntax
Based on ideas about what XML should be like, e.g. not use SQ names
<sandro> rif:identifier, rif:Document
Decisions recorded as resolutions
Decision not to use RDF XML syntax...
ChristW -> Discussed most important issues
<AdrianPa> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/XML_Syntax_Issues_2
Disucssed how to identify rule sets
resolution: use rif:About or rif:Identifier at least in the next draft
Also whether syntax specifies if order matters
but XML ordered anyway
Serialisation of constants also discussed
Sandro: Left the way it is in current draft
ChrisW: Decided not to use Curies
For identifying dialect of RIF - have unique IRI
Document associates itself with dialect with special attribute
(Abstract syntax mechanism)
Decision: Remove ASN from draft
<Harold> Syntax Translation Table for Positive Conditions: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Positive_Conditions#sec-translation
Represent relation between presentation and XML syntax through a table
Christian:
<Harold> Syntax Translation Table for Horn Rules: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules#sec-translation
Resolution with XML syntax are/were critical for 2nd working draft
<csma> OCT 12 -- Frozen ED of WD2
<csma> OCT 12 -- Reviews
<csma> OCT 26 -- Freeze
<csma> OCT 19 -- Reviews
1 week to review frozen draft
editors have 1 more week to implement comments
Then voting takes place
Review between 12 & 19th is only to raise issues that can not be lived with!
We want to know as early as possible for serious issues
For final closing version, everyone should be ready to vote to accept.
Want to have as few comments as pssible after frozen draft
At F2F then had 2 more discussions
Discussed future of F2F, F2F9 probably in early next year in europe
Discussed future of working group itself, what are the options:
terminate?
asked for extensions (same charter)
<AxelPolleres> I made a proposal for F2F9 at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F9
or re-charter
Agreed for short extension
To allow for progress on extensibility and other items in charter
Also, discussed how much correlation between progress of BLD and OWL compatibility
1 option, move forward and consider OWL later
No, OWL too important, BLD goes forward in synch with OWL
Informal discussion about RDF compatibility - no resolutions
ChrisW: Important point - close to agreement
Christian: Will publish draft minutes shortly
MichaelKifer: Jos wants separate document
<Harold> Some issues are color-coded in http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
sandro: split in to separate drfat
ChrisW: Not in favour
... Need to discuss
Michael: Also made remarks on this topic, to distinguish different entailment regimes
RDF already has 3 dialects
Christian: Add to ageda for next week
Harold: someitimes aso restructured, reviews are bes people ot monitor
Christian: Revewers please monitor progress and check if comments areimplemented
<AxelPolleres> 5min ok, gotta go then
<ChrisW> +1 extend
<IgorMozetic> 5min ok
Christian: Extend 5 or 10 minutes
sandro: Agreed we want naming
conventions
... how? Should we wait until later
vote: who wants to rename now, who later
<sandro> +1 talk about renaming now
<ChrisW> +1 for discussing naming
<AxelPolleres> How do you want to vote? per tag or per gneral conventions?
<sandro> per tag
<Harold> -1
<csma> +1
<IgorMozetic> 0
<AdrianPa> -1
0
<MichaelKifer> -1 for wd2
<LeoraMorgenstern> 0
sandro: proposing something like
at F2F
... is anyone motivated to discuss now?
<AxelPolleres> +1
Christian: Majority in favour
Axel: Lok in to topic for working draft 2
Harold, only had chance to work on BLD issues, but not naming conventions
Harold, don't know alternatives
sandro: 2 phase - gather
suggestions and then vote?
... Or continuous selection
harold: use same principles throughout then we get a good language
sandro: for each term in BLD
syntax, suggest alternatives
... can be edited as we go
christian: linked with naming ocnventions?
sandro: wanted to talk about this at F2F
harold: can discuss this week
chrsitian: straw poll can help
<AxelPolleres> I suggest an action on sandro to send a mail by tomorrow to announce the starting points for the poll, allow until next telco others to make additions/modifications on the wiki with rationales, and we start, after a quick review the strawpoll next week? too late?
<AxelPolleres> +1 to christian, exactly what I just wrote.
christian: try to gather input
sandro: just a straw poll, not a vote?
christian: using straw poll to get input
michaelK: should not try to put this in working draft 2, not enough time (1 week)
too much pressure time-wise
sandro: Ok, IF XML agreed syntax is thowaway
michaelK: naming conventions or structure changes?
<Harold> We use names like Var and Const both in the syntax and the semantics.
christian: names only
<Harold> We already have this:
<Harold> EDITOR'S NOTE: The XML syntax for BLD presented here is one of the proposals the Working Group is considering. It is presented here to get feedback on this strawman and to give readers an idea for the kind of information that will be presented in this section.
christian: what is harm of straw poll
sandro: if we can change names later, then better to focus on other things
christian: label names as temporary in draft?
<ChrisW> and we are out of time
christian: no poll, no discussion of naming conventons before draft 2
<IgorMozetic> +1
christian: close meeting, next in 1 week
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/syntax 'triangle', but nothing resolved/syntax 'triangle', but nothing resolved on the first day/ Found Scribe: Barry Bishop WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <Barry\ Bishop> ... Found ScribeNick: barry-b WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: <barry\-b> ... Found ScribeNick: barry_b ScribeNicks: barry-b, barry_b Default Present: +43.512.507.9aaaa, barry_b, csma, Sandro, ChrisW, +539158aabb, IgorMozetic, agiurca, AxelPolleres, Harold, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer Present: +43.512.507.9aaaa barry_b csma Sandro ChrisW +539158aabb IgorMozetic agiurca AxelPolleres Harold LeoraMorgenstern StellaMitchell Gary_Hallmark MichaelKifer Regrets: PaulVincent Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0001.html Got date from IRC log name: 2 Oct 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/02-rif-minutes.html People with action items: 341 WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]