RIF Telecon

21 Aug 2007


See also: IRC log


+1.512.342.aaaa, ChrisW, Harold, DougL, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, PaulVincent, luis_polo, Jeff_Pan, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark
DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer
Chris Welty
Paul Vincent




<ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon August 21 2007

<ChrisW> scribenick: PaulVincent

<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0016.html

Chris: minutes from last week - no objections - accepted

<Harold> Did we ever accept the F2F6 Minutes?



Chris: F2F6 minutes have been accepted

Jos: request for liaison for XML Schema / XSL? Answer: no
... reason: would be useful for any future XML schema plans for "language tag" - for use in the RDF mapping for RIF

Sandro: suggest Jos send qu to the XML schema comment list (see any XML schema draft for list address)


Chris: not heard from anyone re social activities at F2F re dinner location / Fri night -- reminder -- let Chris know

<sandro> josb, see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/ -- it requests using Bugzilla but says you can use www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org

Chris: see wiki page http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F7 for more hotel info

Sandro: suggest wiki page for attendee hotel info / car use to facilitate sharing


<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/D._Evaluation%3A_Use_Cases

<LeoraMorgenstern> I'll go.

<LeoraMorgenstern> Actually, perhaps Harold should go first, since there are some non-vanilla issues in mine.

Sandro: admin note: plan to migrate wiki s/w in future

Leora: looking at UC http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC6_Worked_Example
... see Source Rules: tried to handle temporal aspect: uses Holds operator for state T
... Rule 1b: is equals an argument or an operator - as reification may be different

Paul: temporal aspects will be important - event processing for example might use event rules to determine high level temporal facts

Hassan: Dave & Michael would also have comments here. Temporals aspects also impact data model in RIF or not.

<Harold> If we want to avoid introducing a (temporal) modal logic, then reification seems unavoidable in Leora's UC6.

Hassan: temporal aspects / relating states are metalogic. Therefore assumptions made about the data model.

<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask if you're translating to BLD or to a SIt.Cal. dialect?

BLD = Basic Logic Dialact

Sandro: for example do we standardize "holds" in RIF syntax for translators

Hassan: problem is this will require agreements on "holds" definition...

Leora: risk is segregated RIF users

<josb> RIF is a rules language, not an action language, so defining "holds" is out of scope (at least for the BLD)


<Hassan> What about Leslie Lamport's TLA?

Sorry meant q+ :)


<Harold> The only problem in Rule 1b is the embedding of Equal: it could be 'encoded' as a Uniterm:

<Hassan> Temporal Logic of Actions


<Harold> <Uniterm>

<Harold> <op><Const>Equal</Const></op>

<Harold> <arg>

<Harold> <Uniterm>

<Harold> <op><Const>LevelOf</Const></op>

<Harold> <arg><Var>L</Var></arg>

<Hassan> http://research.microsoft.com/users/lamport/tla/tla.html

<Harold> <arg><Var>X</Var></arg>

<Harold> </Uniterm>

<Harold> </arg>

<Harold> <arg>

<Harold> <Const>Z</Const>

<Harold> </arg>

<Harold> </Uniterm>

<ChrisW> Paul?

Sandro: should you be able to translate between different temporal handlng languages?

<Hassan> Good question Sandro !

Paul will take a look at comparing UC6 rules in an EP language like TIBCO's, for interest


<ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility

Chris: action review: actions continued

Jos: issues raised were resolved or discussed: not yet updated doc
... summary: doc covers RDF graph + RIF ruleset together, being faithful to RDF semantics
... 3 semantics: simple, RDF, RDFS (schema) - all 3 notions covered in doc

Sandro: concern re identifying semantics to use -- for future discussion

Axel: Strings with @ signs in RDF - will this be OK in the proposed format for such literals?

Jos: this is also a need to ask the XML schema group re such literal handling

<josb> x # y <- x[rdf:type -> y]

Chris: What is def of RDF- ? Jos: remove some axiomatic triples (triples true in every interpretation) - to avoid infinite no of facts

<AxelPolleres> the axiomnatic typing of listmembership properties is all that's removed, right?

<josb> right

Harold: Are any of these ideas eg "RDF-" also proposed to RDF community?

Jos: This is also already done in practice by practioners. But may be worthwhile to check with RDF people...

Sandro: use semantic-web mail list (semantic web community)

Jos: doc not sufficiently explained for feedback yet - needs more explanation eg delay until working draft release

<Harold> the combined

<Harold> models of RIF and RDF.

<josb> "a"^^xsd:int

<Harold> were a little problem for Michael.

<AxelPolleres> SPARQL only lift the literals in subject position limitation.

<Harold> Jos, would something like your combined models of RIF and RDF also work for models of RIF and OWL (OWL-Lite, say)?

<AxelPolleres> We have defined a generalization of Riccardo's semantics, which doesn't make his restrictions... which obviously is no longer decidable.

Chris: plans for this doc in the BLD draft - as a section: Jos agree, Harlod agrees

BLD - Overview of changes

<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Positive_Conditions

Harold discussing section Specifying Signatures in RIF Dialects

Chris: other changes for review other than signatures, slotted syntax.

Jos: also changed: "symbol spaces" and datatypes.

<Harold> It would be good to fix asn to asn06 or asn07.

BLD - Planning for WD

<Hassan> +1 with Sandro on using Prolog's syntax

<Harold> "Formal Syntax" could probably be renamed into something like "Formal Preliminaries".

Chris: 4 syntaxes in use: presentation + XML, ASN and "formal"

<Harold> Jos, we need a 1-to-1 correspondence between the presentation and XML syntaxes.

<Harold> (Then it doesnt matter which one is generated.)

Jos: no definintion of the semantics of the language, just some translation - presentation syntax is the "main" one for semantics?

<josb> a mapping from presentation to XML is sufficient

<luis_polo> excuse me, but i have to leave the teleco

<Harold> We could have mappings from the abstract to the XML to the presentation syntax.


<JeffP> +1

<JeffP> bye

Meeting closed

<DougL> bye

<ChrisW> Scribe: Paul Vincent

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2007/08/21 17:19:56 $

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Found ScribeNick: PaulVincent
Found Scribe: Paul Vincent
Default Present: +1.512.342.aaaa, ChrisW, Harold, DougL, LeoraMorgenstern, josb, StellaMitchell, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, PaulVincent, luis_polo, Jeff_Pan, AxelPolleres, Gary_Hallmark
Present: +1.512.342.aaaa ChrisW Harold DougL LeoraMorgenstern josb StellaMitchell Sandro Hassan_Ait-Kaci AllenGinsberg PaulVincent luis_polo Jeff_Pan AxelPolleres Gary_Hallmark
Regrets: DaveReynolds MichaelKifer
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0041.html
Got date from IRC log name: 21 Aug 2007
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/08/21-rif-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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