See also: IRC log
<ChrisW> scribenick: PaulVincent
<ChrisW> Scribe: Paul Vincent
<csma> continued
Action 331 continued
Action 323 continued
<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0197.html
<scribe> ACTION: minutes from June still required [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-rif-minutes.html#action01]
<Harold> Action 253 Experiment with modularization of Condition library (ARCH)
Minutes from July 24 accepted
<Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure
<csma> "to discuss"
Action 330 pending discussion
<DaveReynolds> 258 is similarly "pending discussion"
No liaison reports
F2F: need registration page
<josb> +1 for Manhattan
<csma> after dinner, people should work!
F2F: dinner options: (1) around the mtg location (2) downtown to Manhatten -- preferences to Chris
<DaveReynolds> +1 for local with easier logistics
<AllenGinsberg> +1 Manhattan
F2F weekend activities / social --> comments to Chris
Chris: should revisit use cases /
requirements addressed viz use cases
... UCR doc may need to be revised in light of changes to RIF
Core / dialects
Harold: Core references are still valid
<DaveReynolds> We did discussion compliance, but we didn't agree on it
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements
<DaveReynolds> No, we discussed metadata arch, but again no agreement
<DaveReynolds> No, it is not in the published version
<LeoraMorgenstern> This was one of the requirements that came up from UC 6.
<LeoraMorgenstern> But it arose from other use cases as well, as I remember.
Requirement: Merge rulesets discussed as requirement - new? published?
Alan: accepted at Athens F2F
<LeoraMorgenstern> It was discussed at the break-out session.
<LeoraMorgenstern> I don't remember if it was resolved at the plenary.
Sandro: was resolved in Nov F2F
<sandro> (from my irc log) px-#rif.log:Nov 05 09:44:50 <sandro> RESOLVED: RIF should support the ability to merge rule sets
<csma> see also http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F4
<sandro> (not the official record, but should make it easy to find in the official record, if needed.)
Chris: RIF team should review requirements
<LeoraMorgenstern> I just did mine (6)
<AllenGinsberg> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/D._Evaluation%3A_Use_Cases
Allen: see worked out examples (see above URI) for UC 2, 9
<LeoraMorgenstern> My worked out case is at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC6_Worked_Example
<LeoraMorgenstern> Harold's are at similarly named web pages.
<DaveReynolds> I did the UC8 example a long time ago and it predates any of the current BLD spec
<LeoraMorgenstern> Also Harold did 3 and 10 as well
Chris: all UC authors to link UC
examples to UC page ready for discussion: 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9,
10
... these examples NOT for the UCR doc
<Harold> The "D" comes from the lettering in the earlier http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Extensible_Design
Chris: will add this page as a link to UC work in progress
<ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0012.html
<josb> direct link: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
Jos: explanation: 3 parts to discussion: (see index on page)
<josb> "a"^^int
<ChrisW> "ill typed" literals
Michael: ill typed treated as illegal syntax before now
<josb> "a"^^int
Christian: which RIF? Jos: based on BLD
Jeff: illegal syntax - differences between OWL and RDF for types
Michael: yes should be treated as illegal syntax
Dave: simple entailment is NP complete? Jos: Yes
<josb> S |= G
<josb> skolemize S
<josb> encode G as a query
Jos: syntactic subset but standard RDFS semantics
<josb> S |= G
<Zakim> csma, you wanted to ask what "illegal syntax" means for RIF
Christian: compliance issue for
RIF translators: need to check for illegal syntax?
... should be added to compliance discussion at some point
Action 256 to be updated with syntax compliance
<Harold> Jos, in "Embedding Symbols", did you want tr to look like an identity here? tr maps typed literals "xxx"^^type-uri to symbols with the datatype type-uri: tr("xxx"^^type-uri) = "xxx"^^type-uri for every "xxx"^^type-uri in VTL.
<josb> yes
<josb> I did not propose to change the meaning
<DaveReynolds> Not *everyone* - I didn't
Chris: some reservations on syntax extension...
<JeffP> +1 agree with Dave and csma
<MichaelKifer> To the contrary: borrowing a construct from a foreign language that has a different semantics makes no sense
<IgorMozetic> +1 agree with Michael
<MichaelKifer> why restrict rdfs?
Michael: why restrict RDFS in RIF - may confuse users?
Jos: restricting no of axioms will remove complications of RDFS...
<ChrisW> what about rif:subClassOf rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:Property
<Harold> Couldn't we define, in RIF, a reflexive R subClassEq S as Or( R subClass S R = S) ?
<ChrisW> Harold, reflexiveness is not the issue here, it is pretty minor
<ChrisW> oops, I meant rif:subClassOf rdfs:subPropertyOf rdfs:subClassOf
<Harold> Chris, didn't you worry about the reflexiveness of RDF's subClassOf, which RIF's ## doesn't have?
<Hassan> I agree with MK's argument...
Chris: need examples of both language issues. [None are to be claimed as intuitive]
<Hassan> Yes MK you are right!
Michael to propose in email the reason/example for specifying this behavior in RIF spec
<rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
<Hassan> Dave - you are essentially saying that we should abstract all data models from RIF - just as I proposed originally using CLP
<Hassan> +1 with Dave's statement re. what is a good level of abstraction of data models vs. rules
<GaryHallmark> I like frames, classification, and datatypes in RIF because it makes RIF "closer" to my rule language and thus makes translation, esp. round-tripping, easier
<GaryHallmark> -1 for minimal. It makes translation too hard.
Chris: will send email to summarize discussion - will continue next call
<JeffP> +1
<AllenGinsberg> +1
<DaveReynolds> This comes down to implementing v. conforming - it makes conforming easier but implementing harder
<JeffP> bye
<DaveReynolds> bye
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found ScribeNick: PaulVincent Found Scribe: Paul Vincent Default Present: ChrisW, +95362aaaa, josb, csma, +1.443.539.aabb, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, +1.512.773.aacc, PaulVincent, Jeff_Pan, Gary_Hallmark, DougLenat, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, Sandro, IgorMozetic, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer Present: ChrisW +95362aaaa josb csma +1.443.539.aabb Harold Hassan_Ait-Kaci AllenGinsberg +1.512.773.aacc PaulVincent Jeff_Pan Gary_Hallmark DougLenat Leora_Morgenstern Stella_Mitchell Sandro IgorMozetic Dave_Reynolds MichaelKifer Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0010.html Got date from IRC log name: 14 Aug 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-rif-minutes.html People with action items: minutes WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]