14:25:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:25:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-rif-irc
14:25:31 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:25:31 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
14:25:56 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 14 Aug 07
14:26:03 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:26:51 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0010.html
14:27:09 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 14 Aug RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0010.html
14:27:32 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:27:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:28:25 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:28:31 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:28:36 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F
14:28:40 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
14:28:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD
14:29:07 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD-RDF Compatibility
14:29:29 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD-Frames
14:29:38 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:29:47 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:29:47 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:29:53 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:29:56 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:29:58 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F
14:30:01 <ChrisW> agenda+ UCR
14:30:03 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD
14:30:05 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD-RDF Compatibility
14:30:08 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD-Frames
14:30:12 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:50:31 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
14:51:18 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:55:43 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
14:57:08 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:00:31 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:35 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:00:38 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:45 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:00:45 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:00:47 <Zakim> + +95362aaaa
15:00:54 <AllenGinsberg> AllenGinsberg has joined #rif
15:01:10 <Zakim> +josb
15:01:31 <csma> zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:31 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:01:51 <PaulVincent> PaulVincent has joined #RIF
15:02:10 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:02:12 <Zakim> + +1.443.539.aabb
15:02:14 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:02:26 <Zakim> +??P25
15:02:36 <Harold> zakim, NRCC is me
15:02:36 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:02:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:46 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
15:02:53 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:03:05 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:03:16 <PaulVincent> zakim, P25 is me
15:03:21 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:03:28 <Zakim> sorry, PaulVincent, I do not recognize a party named 'P25'
15:03:34 <ChrisW> zakim, aabb is AllenGinsberg
15:03:37 <Zakim> +AllenGinsberg; got it
15:03:41 <Zakim> + +1.512.773.aacc
15:04:08 <Zakim> +Jeff_Pan
15:04:11 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:04:17 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:04:19 <ChrisW> zakim, aacc is DougLenat
15:04:19 <Zakim> +DougLenat; got it
15:04:20 <Zakim> +Leora_Morgenstern
15:04:27 <IgorMozetic> IgorMozetic has joined #rif
15:04:33 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #rif
15:04:41 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
15:04:42 <ChrisW> scribenick: PaulVincent
15:04:49 <ChrisW> Scribe: Paul Vincent
15:04:54 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:04:54 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:04:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:05:03 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:05:06 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:05:31 <Zakim> +??P41
15:05:34 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:05:40 <IgorMozetic> zakim, ??P41 is me
15:05:40 <Zakim> +IgorMozetic; got it
15:05:42 <csma> continued
15:05:45 <Zakim> +??P42
15:05:48 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P42)
15:05:57 <PaulVincent> Action 331 continued
15:06:20 <PaulVincent> Action 323 continued
15:07:26 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Jul/0197.html
15:07:40 <PaulVincent> Action: minutes from June still required
15:07:55 <Harold> Action 253 Experiment with modularization of Condition library (ARCH) 	
15:07:58 <PaulVincent> Minutes from July 24 accepted
15:08:01 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:08:01 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:09 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure
15:08:30 <csma> "to discuss"
15:09:19 <PaulVincent> Action 330 pending discussion
15:09:27 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:09:27 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:31 <DaveReynolds> 258 is similarly "pending discussion"
15:09:56 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 2
15:09:56 <Zakim> agendum 2, Liason, closed
15:09:57 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:09:59 <PaulVincent> No liaison reports
15:09:59 <Zakim> 3. F2F [from ChrisW]
15:10:00 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:10:00 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:19 <MoZ_> MoZ_ has joined #rif
15:10:41 <PaulVincent> F2F: need registration page
15:11:19 <josb> +1 for Manhattan
15:11:27 <csma> after dinner, people should work!
15:11:28 <PaulVincent> F2F: dinner options: (1) around the mtg location (2) downtown to Manhatten -- preferences to Chris
15:11:33 <DaveReynolds> +1 for local with easier logistics
15:11:47 <AllenGinsberg> +1 Manhattan
15:12:07 <PaulVincent> F2F weekend activities / social --> comments to Chris
15:12:35 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:12:35 <Zakim> agendum 4. "UCR" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:32 <PaulVincent> Chris: should revisit use cases / requirements addressed viz use cases
15:15:15 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:16:14 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
15:17:16 <Harold> q+
15:17:22 <csma> q+
15:17:26 <PaulVincent> Chris: UCR doc may need to be revised in light of changes to RIF Core / dialects
15:17:56 <PaulVincent> Harold: Core references are still valid
15:17:57 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:17:57 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:19:11 <csma> ack csma
15:19:42 <DaveReynolds> We did discussion compliance, but we didn't agree on it
15:19:48 <PaulVincent> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UCR/Requirements
15:20:32 <DaveReynolds> No, we discussed metadata arch, but again no agreement
15:21:32 <DaveReynolds> No, it is not in the published version
15:21:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> This was one of the requirements that came up from UC 6.
15:21:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> But it arose from other use cases as well, as I remember.
15:22:22 <PaulVincent> Requirement: Merge rulesets discussed as requirement - new? published?
15:22:32 <PaulVincent> Alan: accepted at Athens F2F
15:23:26 <LeoraMorgenstern> It was discussed at the break-out session.
15:23:35 <LeoraMorgenstern> I don't remember if it was resolved at the plenary.
15:23:46 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, unmute me
15:23:46 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should no longer be muted
15:23:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:24:14 <Harold> q-
15:25:50 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, mute me
15:25:50 <Zakim> Leora_Morgenstern should now be muted
15:25:56 <PaulVincent> Sandro: was resolved in Nov F2F
15:26:14 <sandro> (from my irc log)    px-#rif.log:Nov 05 09:44:50 <sandro>    RESOLVED: RIF should support the ability to merge rule sets
15:26:35 <csma> see also http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/F2F4
15:26:39 <sandro> (not the official record, but should make it easy to find in the official record, if needed.)
15:26:46 <PaulVincent> Chris: RIF team should review requirements
15:27:06 <LeoraMorgenstern> I just did mine (6)
15:27:16 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:27:23 <AllenGinsberg> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/D._Evaluation%3A_Use_Cases
15:28:22 <PaulVincent> Allen: see worked out examples (see above URI) for UC 2, 9
15:28:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> My worked out case is at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/UC6_Worked_Example
15:28:44 <LeoraMorgenstern> Harold's are at similarly named web pages.
15:28:57 <DaveReynolds> I did the UC8 example a long time ago and it predates any of the current BLD spec
15:29:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> Also Harold did 3 and 10 as well
15:30:13 <PaulVincent> Chris: all UC authors to link UC examples to UC page ready for discussion: 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
15:30:23 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:30:34 <LeoraMorgenstern> q-
15:30:50 <ChrisW> ack DaveReynolds
15:30:56 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:30:56 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:31:17 <PaulVincent> Chris: these examples NOT for the UCR doc
15:33:30 <Harold> The "D" comes from the lettering in the earlier http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Extensible_Design
15:33:39 <PaulVincent> Chris: will add this page as a link to UC work in progress
15:34:06 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:34:06 <Zakim> agendum 6. "BLD-RDF Compatibility" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:34:25 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Aug/0012.html
15:34:47 <josb> direct link: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
15:34:47 <PaulVincent> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/RIF-RDF_Compatibility
15:37:34 <PaulVincent> Jos: explanation: 3 parts to discussion: (see index on page)
15:38:53 <csma> q+
15:40:09 <josb> "a"^^int
15:40:21 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:40:21 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:40:27 <ChrisW> "ill typed" literals
15:41:27 <PaulVincent> Michael: ill typed treated as illegal syntax before now
15:41:39 <JeffP> q+
15:42:11 <josb> "a"^^int
15:42:33 <csma> ack csma
15:43:28 <PaulVincent> Christian: which RIF? Jos: based on BLD
15:43:51 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:43:58 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:43:58 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:44:02 <ChrisW> ack jeffp
15:44:05 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:44:05 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:44:52 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:44:52 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:44:57 <PaulVincent> Jeff: illegal syntax - differences between OWL and RDF for types
15:45:10 <DaveReynolds> ack me
15:45:14 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:45:14 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:45:23 <PaulVincent> Michael: yes should be treated as illegal syntax
15:45:58 <PaulVincent> Dave: simple entailment is NP complete? Jos: Yes
15:46:12 <josb> S |= G
15:46:23 <csma> q+ to ask what "illegal syntax" means for RIF
15:46:26 <josb> skolemize S
15:46:34 <josb> encode G as a query
15:52:26 <PaulVincent> Jos: syntactic subset but standard RDFS semantics
15:53:06 <josb> S |= G
15:54:59 <csma> ack csma
15:55:00 <Zakim> csma, you wanted to ask what "illegal syntax" means for RIF
15:56:19 <PaulVincent> Christian: compliance issue for RIF translators: need to check for illegal syntax?
15:57:36 <PaulVincent> Christian: should be added to compliance discussion at some point
15:57:50 <josb> q+
15:59:12 <josb> q-
15:59:23 <PaulVincent> Action 256 to be updated with syntax compliance
15:59:26 <Harold> Jos, in "Embedding Symbols", did you want tr to look like an identity here? tr maps typed literals "xxx"^^type-uri to symbols with the datatype type-uri: tr("xxx"^^type-uri) = "xxx"^^type-uri for every "xxx"^^type-uri in VTL.
15:59:47 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:59:47 <Zakim> agendum 7. "BLD-Frames" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:00:06 <josb> yes
16:01:54 <MichaelKifer> q+
16:02:53 <josb> I did not propose to change the meaning
16:03:26 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:03:26 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:04:59 <DaveReynolds> Not *everyone* - I didn't
16:05:22 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:05:22 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:06:10 <PaulVincent> Chris: some reservations on syntax extension... 
16:06:37 <JeffP> +1 agree with Dave and csma
16:06:43 <MichaelKifer> To the contrary: borrowing a construct from a foreign language that has a different semantics makes no sense
16:07:04 <IgorMozetic> +1 agree with Michael
16:07:38 <MichaelKifer> why restrict rdfs?
16:08:55 <Harold> q+
16:09:29 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:09:29 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:09:59 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:09:59 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:10:36 <PaulVincent> Michael: why restrict RDFS in RIF - may confuse users?
16:10:56 <csma> q+
16:11:11 <PaulVincent> Jos: restricting no of axioms will remove complications of RDFS...
16:11:11 <ChrisW> ack mi
16:11:15 <ChrisW> ack har
16:12:37 <ChrisW> what about rif:subClassOf rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:Property
16:12:44 <csma> ack me
16:13:03 <csma> q+
16:13:20 <Harold> Couldn't we define, in RIF, a reflexive   R subClassEq S   as   Or(  R subClass S    R = S)   ?
16:13:42 <ChrisW> Harold, reflexiveness is not the issue here, it is pretty minor
16:14:50 <ChrisW> oops, I meant rif:subClassOf rdfs:subPropertyOf rdfs:subClassOf
16:16:03 <Harold> Chris, didn't you worry about the reflexiveness of RDF's subClassOf, which RIF's ## doesn't have?
16:16:37 <Zakim> -DougLenat
16:16:58 <ChrisW> ack csma
16:17:02 <Hassan> I agree with MK's argument...
16:18:31 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:18:33 <PaulVincent> Chris: need examples of both language issues. [None are to be claimed as intuitive]
16:20:40 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:21:27 <Hassan> Yes MK you are right!
16:22:12 <PaulVincent> Michael to propose in email the reason/example for specifying this behavior in RIF spec
16:22:37 <rifbot> rifbot has joined #rif
16:22:38 <rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
16:24:00 <Hassan> Dave - you are essentially saying that we should abstract all data models from RIF - just as I proposed originally using CLP
16:26:03 <Hassan> +1 with Dave's statement re. what is a good level of abstraction of data models vs. rules
16:27:19 <Hassan> q+
16:27:29 <MichaelKifer> q-
16:30:11 <GaryHallmark> I like frames, classification, and datatypes in RIF because it makes RIF "closer" to my rule language and thus makes translation, esp. round-tripping, easier
16:31:02 <GaryHallmark> -1 for minimal.  It makes translation too hard.
16:31:30 <PaulVincent> Chris: will send email to summarize discussion - will continue next call
16:31:35 <JeffP> +1
16:31:37 <AllenGinsberg> +1
16:31:37 <DaveReynolds> This comes down to implementing v. conforming - it makes conforming easier but implementing harder
16:31:44 <Zakim> -Harold
16:31:46 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:31:47 <Zakim> -AllenGinsberg
16:31:47 <JeffP> bye
16:31:49 <Zakim> -Leora_Morgenstern
16:31:49 <DaveReynolds> bye
16:31:49 <sandro> zakim, list attendees
16:31:50 <Zakim> -Stella_Mitchell
16:31:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisW, +95362aaaa, josb, csma, +1.443.539.aabb, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, +1.512.773.aacc, PaulVincent, Jeff_Pan,
16:31:55 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark, DougLenat, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, Sandro, IgorMozetic, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer
16:31:57 <Zakim> -IgorMozetic
16:31:59 <Zakim> -josb
16:32:00 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:32:01 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:32:01 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:32:02 <Zakim> -Jeff_Pan
16:32:03 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:32:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisW, +95362aaaa, josb, csma, +1.443.539.aabb, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, +1.512.773.aacc, PaulVincent, Jeff_Pan,
16:32:06 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark, DougLenat, Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, Sandro, IgorMozetic, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer
16:32:21 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/08/14-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:28 <csma> zakim, who is on the call?
16:32:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, PaulVincent, Sandro
16:32:54 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
16:44:02 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:44:03 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:44:13 <Zakim> -csma
16:44:15 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:44:16 <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisW, +95362aaaa, josb, csma, +1.443.539.aabb, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, AllenGinsberg, +1.512.773.aacc, PaulVincent, Jeff_Pan, Gary_Hallmark, DougLenat,
16:44:19 <Zakim> ... Leora_Morgenstern, Stella_Mitchell, Sandro, IgorMozetic, Dave_Reynolds, MichaelKifer