Weekly Forms WG Teleconference -- 27 Jun 2007

<John_Boyer> a few others as well...

<John_Boyer> Did you mean MarkS or MarkB

<John_Boyer> ?

<John_Boyer> Oh, forgot to say... Steven

<John_Boyer> ruff

<Steven> lol

<Steven> MarkB, I forgot MarkS was back :-)

Mark Seaborne is back?

speaking of him... :-)

Mark, hi!

<markseaborne> Hello there :-)

welcome back! :-)

<markseaborne> ta very much

we missed you!

<John_Boyer> Yes, esp. with Leigh being out today :-)

<markseaborne> well, you should take aim more carefully then!

<John_Boyer> wink, wink, nudge, nudge

<markseaborne> hmmmm

markseaborne, are u replacing david landwehr?

<markseaborne> I don't know!

<markseaborne> yes

<markseaborne> though only on the WG :-)

sure: -)

<markseaborne> he wanted to spend more time with his family ;-)

<Steven> lol

ok...

switching laptops

mom

<markseaborne> I thought sebastian didn't like laptops?

<Charlie> i bought him one :}

<John_Boyer> He seems to like IBM thinkpads...

<Charlie> (well, he paid for it...)

<markseaborne> fair enough

Charlie, hi, the X40 is so great, thanks so much :-)

<Steven> You see that there is a UK Zakim now MarkS

<markseaborne> goodness

raman, ping

<ebruchez> well, I was ??P53

<ebruchez> so I guess Lars was 51

<ebruchez> zkim, [IP is ebruchez

<John_Boyer> Scribe: raman

<markseaborne> me

<scribe> Scribe: Raman

<markseaborne> it is MarkS

<markseaborne> but you can't hear me for some reason

<markseaborne> MEEEEE!!!!!!

<markseaborne> I am having problems with speech

<markseaborne> don't know why

<markseaborne> I'm shouting as loud as I can

<markseaborne> IS THAT BETTER!!!!!!

<John_Boyer> no

<Steven> nope

<markseaborne> yes

<markseaborne> It is a hardware problem at this end

<lars> mpf

<markseaborne> my mic isn't working

<Steven> scribe: raman

<ebruchez> congratulations

<markseaborne> Thanks :-)

<Schnitz> yeah, great to have you back

<markseaborne> nice to be back

<Charlie> welcome!

<markseaborne> :-)

<John_Boyer> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0084.html

<John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/forms-diffs-1.7-1.14.txt

Charter

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/06/forms-diffs-1.7-1.14.txt

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/forms-charter.html

<Schnitz> steven, +1

<Schnitz> scribe: Sebastian

<Steven> scribenick: schnitz

<scribe> ACTION: John to respond to Chris Lilley about the relationship between XHTML Transitional and the Forms & HTML WGs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html#action01]

Coming Calls

John: Regrets for next week?

Charlie: YES

John: +Leigh

+Raman

Raman: regrets next week

John: we habe enough people

RESOLUTION: Next call will take place as planned

Questionaire for the summer period

John: Steven, status?

Steven: On my to-do list

XForms evening at XML conference

John: We have thumbs up from Dave Steinhard
... conflict on Dec 4
... affects Steven

Steven: cannot do much, unfortunately

RESOLUTION: We will continue with Dec 4, w/o Steven

<John_Boyer> 28http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0081.html

John: We need a copy for a call for papers
... we should have an invited speaker
... I propose Michael Kay

Raman: possible
... That focus is XML though, I rather see Jacob Nielson, focus on Usability

John: Would Jacob attract the audience?

Raman: YES

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to provide contact details for Jacob [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html#action02]

Charlie: That would warm people up

John: other ideas?

Steven: Kurt Cagle

Sebastian: +1

Raman: +1

<scribe> ACTION: John to invite Kurt Cagle [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html#action03]

Joint Forms Task Force

John: Pushed it up to the HCG
... Agreed about equal membership
... Then push it back down to chairs

<John_Boyer> 28http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Jun/0070.html

John: Letter is out, no response yet
... Problem is, Dave is not here

Raman: Don't rush, the TF could be quickly smashed
... IMHO, won't go anywhere
... Its a mess, I have no idea what to do

John: 12 people on the HTML WG side have interest

Raman: They won't allow wiggle room

Sebastian, Raman: Not rushing it is a good idea

John: Those interested from our side could in the meanwhile could be looking into ease of authoring

Raman: Just do it.

Action Item List

John: Issue Tracking is important
... The Action Item List grows, but we need more folks take on work on a weekly basis

Raman: I have not been doing much

John: The Wiki needs more work

<scribe> ACTION: WG members look into their Action Items, and start working on them on the Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html#action04]

Raman: ciao

LC Issues

<John_Boyer> 28http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=72;user=guest;statetype=4;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

<Steven> Issue Controls/72

John: Issue from Steven
... Do we have an ETA on this?

Steven: Did we accept it?

John: Classified as still needing work

Steven: trying to work this out...

John: It needs approval

Steven: Somebody things this is a solution, but the group need to discuss this, but it doesn't say what the resolution is
... the first thing is that the wording should be different
... Then, very few controls says what the default styling should be

Sebastian: UA CSS?

Steven: Possibly

Sebastian: Display property?
... inline for trigger

Steven: ah default UA CSS would be fine

John: things like relevant go beyond, though

Steven: relevant is display: none for irrelevant

John: Is this a informative appendix?

Steven: should be stronger
... Maybe not MUST, but in case of validity, it SHOULD always be visible as being invalid, e.g.
... I do not require a particular presentation but we should require that something needs to be done

John: this seems like for ALL form controls, not particular ones

Steven: Select1 inline as a drop-down, block as radio?

Lars: Radios could be inline

Steven: Maybe, maybe all inline

Sebastian: Radio button themselves could be inline-block

Steven: That is CSS3

Sebastian: Right

Erik: It is diffcult, in can be both vertial and horizontal

<Roger> I agree with Erik

John: don't know whether we should go down that route

Steven: There is a certain level that has to be normative
... you should expect certain things to happen
... So you know what to put in a User CSS
... Establishing Basic Expectations

Lars: Default UA CSS?

Steven: Just say all controls are default inline
... and all MIPS are all perceivable by the user

<markseaborne> Isn't presentation more down to the host language?

John: what about read-only?

<Charlie> i'd suggest whatever language we specify clarify that this is just for visual UIs

<markseaborne> You really need some context before you can make assumptions

Steven: No, read-only also could have a hint, like being grey
... disabled, the label is greyed out, read-only, the value is greyed out

Erik: its the way it behaves

Lars: I also find it more convenient to see what to expect

John: in other langauges read-only e.g. is not shown

Steven: you can control that, we are talking about the default

Erik: we would just say its an indication, not e.g. being grey

John: someone needs to write the text

Sebastian: Steven is the one

<scribe> ACTION: Steven to write text for Issue Controls 72 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/27-forms-minutes.html#action05]

Sebastian: It would be good to have a mapping into CSS 3 UI syntax

<Steven> PROPOSED: all controls should be default inline, and that all MIP properties should be perceivable on attached controls

<Charlie> for visual interfaces

<Charlie> don't think inline has an equivalent in voicexml

<Steven> PROPOSED: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be preceivable on attached controls

<Charlie> for visual interfaces...

Charlie: OK, I'm happy

<Steven> POPOSAL: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be perceivable on attached controls without interaction

Lars: From an XForms perspective, controls should be more abstract

<Steven> r/PRO/PROP/

Charlie: I think its OK since inline is not only for visual medias

<Steven> RESOLUTION: all controls should be default inline, and all MIP properties should be perceivable on attached controls without interaction

John: works for me, any objection

No objections

Steven, thanks

<John_Boyer> 28http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=73;user=guest;statetype=4;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Issue 73

Controls/73

John: We already agreed on a resolution see the notes
... Steven, you raised a media type issue
... use @value instead of @ref, and we modified to say "in addition to"

Erik: why do you actually need the ref attribute?

John: we discussed that
... we tried to mirror with the xforms output the things you can with the xforms upload

Erik: I you have an output the media type will be chosen by the author, as to opposed to the upload, probably

John: upload the media type attibute constrains, output picks that up to feed to rendering engine
... ref attribute was added to easy sync between output and upload

Erik: I am skeptical

Steven: We tried to be consistent with upload
... when we do not want to be consistent, because they are different, fine, then never mind

Erik: The media type value is a string, not a single node, don't confuse that

John: we need an action item to make the change
... the value attribute will be added
... the question is whether we throw out ref

Erik: we are generally working around not having attribute value template
... I don't really see why we would use ref attribute, only for symmetry, is not enough

John: Top of the hour

<Roger_> thx

<markseaborne> bye bye

Steven, thanks

- DRAFT -

Weekly Forms WG Teleconference

27 Jun 2007

Attendees

Contents