UAWG conference call -- 1 Mar 2007

<AllanJ> rrsagent set logs public

<AllanJ> scribe: Jan Richards

<AllanJ> agenda:

<JR> scribe: JR

1. Review Acton items

JA: ACTION: KF to 3f DONE
... ACTION: JA to Will combine KF's 3f and 3d

<scribe> DONE

JA: ACTION: KF to Send 1f text

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0042.html

JA: Do we need "more" in there
... or just "clarity"

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0035.html

JA: ACTION: JR to Add a sentence to 3e saying we'll keep an eye on emerging

protocols in this area

<scribe> ACTION: JA to will do 1c [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-minutes.html#action01]

JA: ACTION: JA to will do 1c
... Discussing reviewing issue of wcag/uaag reponsibility split
... Would like some more eyes on this

JR: Also maybe want to look at principle of split

JA: Example: Checkpoint 2.1.1

<AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/guidelines.html#keyboard-operation

<AllanJ> 2.1.1 All functionality of the content is operable in a non-time-dependent manner through a keyboard interface, except where the task requires analog, time-dependent input.

JA: Doesn't seem like it should be here - author has no control of plugin

CL: But this could be a web app - author does control
... But yes in the static web it's the browser or plugin who provides this

<scribe> ACTION: JR to Take a look at the wcag/uaag relationship - division of responsibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-minutes.html#action02]

JA: ACTION: JA to Will do 2c
... As thinking thought we needed to define core behaviour in browser before getting in to extnesions etc

<AllanJ> extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport)

JA: Ex. can't get alt text from keyboard without screen reader - with mouse can hover to get tooltip
... We should always say mouse AND keyboard

CL: Right should be able to get tooltips from keyboard

JA: Right Doesn't know of any browser

CL: Author could do it

JA: I've tried

CL: In CL there is much bigger concept of tooltips - with controls etc

JA: OK there are two levels - plain HTML etc and ARIA level

<AllanJ> Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content)

JA: Will clean this up and send to the list

<cklaws> A plug-in is a program that runs as part of the user agent and that is not part of content. Users generally choose to include or exclude plug-ins from their user agent.

JA: We don't have a defintion for "extension"

<AllanJ> plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI)

JA: TEITAC wrestling with plugin issue...
... THey are a platform within a platform...

<AllanJ> Web applications (Flash?) author provide UI - content written appropriately, browser take content and sends to API

JA: Flash came up, sort of a plugin but author provide UI like a web application

CL: Wikipedia has some good definitions

JA: At one time, thought flash was a plugin...

<cklaws> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0#Rich_Internet_applications

JA: Then...is SVG a plugin now that its in Firefox natively

JR: User agents don't need to be HTML only...

KF: Some technologies can be in both platforms

KK: Like acrobat vs reader

KK=KF

CL: Reader more accessible when not embedded

JA: Are charcterizations clear in extensions defn?

<cklaws> But Flash is currently only accessible as an ActiveX control in a Web page - in IE on Windows today

<AllanJ> > extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport)

CL: I think of extensions on Firefox...

KF: IE has extensions as well...
... ...Something added to Chrome...may interact on content

<cklaws> The term extension in a computing context most commonly refers to a computer program that although not useful or functional in its own right, is designed to be incorporated into another piece of software in order to enhance, or extend, the functionality.

<AllanJ> JR: extensions are going to be added to a UA, included in the conformance profile...browser + extension x, y, z conform

JR: I like CL's wikipedia example

JA: Agreed that extensions become part of chrome...

KF: THere's a firefox extension that adds numbers to all links

JA: Also ad-blocker
... Have seen extensions loaded into status bar
... Think my defn is ok so far

CL: OK its fine

<AllanJ> plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI)

CL: This had been in UAAG ...
... But often APPEARS to be in content - even though not in DOM

JA: OK current defn missing that
... important piece.
... Was thinking specifically of media players...
... Have own user interface - stop, play volume slider...
... Outside of browser chrome, UA doesn't know about them...

CL: Once in, keyboard handled by that use interface

JA: Maybe need to be more clear than term "UI"

KF: Yes need to clarify a bit more - especially what we mean by own UI

CL: They have their own controls and their own keyboard nav...

KF: Isn't this kind of plugin a user agent...

CL: Sometimes its a "player"...

<AllanJ> KF: browser is a player of html

<AllanJ> ...player is a UA

AJ: I've always though of plugins as players of different formats

AJ=JA

<AllanJ> CL: flash in a webpage, don't know that its not part of the content. doesn't have its own ui

KF: "DocHosted"

<AllanJ> ...other types of players, word & pdf are hosted applications with own controls and interface embeded in the browser

JR: Seems like between plugin and extension

<cklaws> Plugins are slightly different from extensions, which modify or add to existing functionality. The main difference is that plugins generally rely on the main application's user interface and have a well-defined boundary to their possible set of actions. Extensions generally have fewer restrictions on their actions, and may provide their own user interfaces.

KF: Plugin and extensions cover the field including DocHosting

CL: Plugins trying to use same chrome for diff content

<AllanJ> jr: plugins work with different types of content, may provide their own chrome

CL: Extensions opertating on same content
... Plugins working on new kind of content

KF: Has to leave early

JA: Let's just finish AT, we'll do the use cases next time
... Hypothetical...we have SVG native in browser...
... then not a plugin anymore...just has to follow UA guidelines.

<AllanJ> Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content)

CL: OK we may want ot change AT defn...
... In UAAG 1. went back and forth on whether it is a user agent
... Further confused by integrated browsers...PWwebspeak, HPR...
... But some ATs might be extensions

<AllanJ> ...- firevox, webadapt2me

CL: SOme might not be out of process
... Inprocess - go to DOM to do nav etc., Out of process use accessibility API

JA: Good point separate core tools from assistive tech functionality

<cklaws> my phone just died

<parente> mine too

<AllanJ> me too

<parente> must be IBM

<AllanJ> its almost end of time. lets just cal it quits

JA: Let's continue this next time
... "Base" user agent

- DRAFT -

UAWG conference call

1 Mar 2007

Attendees

Contents

1. Review Acton items

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output