18:49:45 RRSAgent has joined #ua 18:49:45 logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-irc 18:49:57 rrsagent set logs public 18:50:07 rrsagent, set logs public 18:50:25 meeting: UAWG conference call 18:50:32 chair: Jim Allan 18:50:41 scribe: Jan Richards 18:50:48 agenda: 18:51:51 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0040.html 18:53:52 JR has joined #ua 18:55:52 scribe: JR 18:56:46 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started 18:56:53 +Jim_Allan 19:00:23 KFord has joined #ua 19:01:03 +??P2 19:01:33 zakim, ??P2 is KFord 19:01:33 +KFord; got it 19:02:02 +[IBM] 19:02:18 parente has joined #ua 19:02:26 cklaws has joined #ua 19:02:33 +??P3 19:02:44 zakim, [IBM] is cklaws 19:02:44 +cklaws; got it 19:02:49 +[IBM] 19:03:04 zakim, ??p3 is jr 19:03:04 +jr; got it 19:03:23 zakim, [ibm] is parente 19:03:23 +parente; got it 19:04:32 Topic: 1. Review Acton items 19:04:43 JA: ACTION: KF to 3f DONE 19:04:52 JA: ACTION: JA to Will combine KF's 3f and 3d 19:04:55 DONE 19:05:09 JA: ACTION: KF to Send 1f text 19:05:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0042.html 19:05:39 JA: Do we need "more" in there 19:05:51 JA: or just "clarity" 19:06:38 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2007JanMar/0035.html 19:06:59 JA: ACTION: JR to Add a sentence to 3e saying we'll keep an eye on emerging 19:06:59 protocols in this area 19:08:02 ACTION: JA to will do 1c 19:08:19 JA: ACTION: JA to will do 1c 19:08:52 JA: Discussing reviewing issue of wcag/uaag reponsibility split 19:09:00 JA: Would like some more eyes on this 19:09:49 JR: Also maybe want to look at principle of split 19:10:08 JA: Example: Checkpoint 2.1.1 19:10:25 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/guidelines.html#keyboard-operation 19:10:39 2.1.1 All functionality of the content is operable in a non-time-dependent manner through a keyboard interface, except where the task requires analog, time-dependent input. 19:11:49 JA: Doesn't seem like it should be here - author has no control of plugin 19:12:06 CL: But this could be a web app - author does control 19:12:29 CL: But yes in the static web it's the browser or plugin who provides this 19:12:58 Action JR: Take a look at the wcag/uaag relationship - division of responsibility 19:13:21 JA: ACTION: JA to Will do 2c 19:13:51 JA: As thinking thought we needed to define core behaviour in browser before getting in to extnesions etc 19:14:08 extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport) 19:14:43 JA: Ex. can't get alt text from keyboard without screen reader - with mouse can hover to get tooltip 19:15:08 JA: We should always say mouse AND keyboard 19:16:14 CL: Right should be able to get tooltips from keyboard 19:16:27 JA: Right Doesn't know of any browser 19:16:39 CL: Author could do it 19:16:48 JA: I've tried 19:17:17 CL: In CL there is much bigger concept of tooltips - with controls etc 19:18:15 JA: OK there are two levels - plain HTML etc and ARIA level 19:18:45 Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content) 19:19:18 JA: Will clean this up and send to the list 19:19:59 A plug-in is a program that runs as part of the user agent and that is not part of content. Users generally choose to include or exclude plug-ins from their user agent. 19:19:59 JA: We don't have a defintion for "extension" 19:20:15 plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI) 19:21:01 JA: TEITAC wrestling with plugin issue... 19:21:16 JA: THey are a platform within a platform... 19:21:37 Web applications (Flash?) author provide UI - content written appropriately, browser take content and sends to API 19:21:41 JA: Flash came up, sort of a plugin but author provide UI like a web application 19:22:23 CL:Wikipedia has some good definitions 19:22:43 JA: At one time, thought flash was a plugin... 19:23:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_2.0#Rich_Internet_applications 19:24:06 JA: Then...is SVG a plugin now that its in Firefox natively 19:24:58 JR: User agents don't need to be HTML only... 19:25:14 KF: Some technologies can be in both platforms 19:25:41 KK: Like acrobat vs reader 19:25:46 KK=KF 19:26:00 CL: Reader more accessible when not embedded 19:26:29 JA: Are charcterizations clear in extensions defn? 19:26:50 But Flash is currently only accessible as an ActiveX control in a Web page - in IE on Windows today 19:27:30 > extensions (becomes native to the UA, may change UI and/or content or interaction with the content in viewport) 19:28:20 CL: I think of extensions on Firefox... 19:28:31 KF: IE has extensions as well... 19:28:50 KF: ...Something added to Chrome...may interact on content 19:29:56 The term extension in a computing context most commonly refers to a computer program that although not useful or functional in its own right, is designed to be incorporated into another piece of software in order to enhance, or extend, the functionality. 19:30:10 JR: extensions are going to be added to a UA, included in the conformance profile...browser + extension x, y, z conform 19:30:46 JR: I like CL's wikipedia example 19:31:09 JA: Agreed that extensions become part of chrome... 19:32:05 KF: THere's a firefox extension that adds numbers to all links 19:32:21 JA: Also ad-blocker 19:32:54 JA: Have seen extensions loaded into status bar 19:33:18 JA: Think my defn is ok so far 19:34:06 CL: OK its fine 19:34:24 plugins (external to the UA, are a UA, may be embedded within content viewport, have own UI) 19:35:01 CL: This had been in UAAG ... 19:35:13 CL: But often APPEARS to be in content - even though not in DOM 19:35:50 JA: OK current defn missing that 19:36:01 ...important piece. 19:36:39 JA: Was thinking specifically of media players... 19:36:53 JA: Have own user interface - stop, play volume slider... 19:37:10 JA: Outside of browser chrome, UA doesn't know about them... 19:37:25 CL: Once in, keyboard handled by that use interface 19:37:45 JA: Maybe need to be more clear than term "UI" 19:38:04 KF: Yes need to clarify a bit more - especially what we mean by own UI 19:38:40 CL: They have their own controls and their own keyboard nav... 19:39:44 KF: Isn't this kind of plugin a user agent... 19:39:57 CL: Sometimes its a "player"... 19:40:33 KF: browser is a player of html 19:40:40 ...player is a UA 19:41:11 AJ: I've always though of plugins as players of different formats 19:41:17 AJ=JA 19:42:26 CL: flash in a webpage, don't know that its not part of the content. doesn't have its own ui 19:43:09 KF: "DocHosted" 19:43:42 ...other types of players, word & pdf are hosted applications with own controls and interface embeded in the browser 19:43:49 JR: Seems like between plugin and extension 19:45:33 Plugins are slightly different from extensions, which modify or add to existing functionality. The main difference is that plugins generally rely on the main application's user interface and have a well-defined boundary to their possible set of actions. Extensions generally have fewer restrictions on their actions, and may provide their own user interfaces. 19:46:09 KF: Plugin and extensions cover the field including DocHosting 19:47:19 CL: Plugins trying to use same chrome for diff content 19:47:45 jr: plugins work with different types of content, may provide their own chrome 19:47:58 CL: Extensions opertating on same content 19:48:15 CL: Plugins working on new kind of content 19:48:35 KF: Has to leave early 19:48:48 -KFord 19:48:54 JA: Let's just finish AT, we'll do the use cases next time 19:49:24 JA: Hypothetical...we have SVG native in browser... 19:49:47 ...then not a plugin anymore...just has to follow UA guidelines. 19:50:43 Assistive technology (external to the UA, have own UI, provide alternate views of content, provide alternate input/output interaction, may render conditional content) 19:51:15 CL: OK we may want ot change AT defn... 19:51:38 CL: In UAAG 1. went back and forth on whether it is a user agent 19:52:18 CL: Further confused by integrated browsers...PWwebspeak, HPR... 19:52:32 CL: But some ATs might be extensions 19:52:57 ...- firevox, webadapt2me 19:53:04 CL: SOme might not be out of process 19:53:33 CL: Inprocess - go to DOM to do nav etc., Out of process use accessibility API 19:54:18 -cklaws 19:54:20 -Jim_Allan 19:54:21 JA: Good point separate core tools from assistive tech functionality 19:54:30 my phone just died 19:54:33 mine too 19:54:44 me too 19:54:48 must be IBM 19:54:57 +[IBM] 19:55:11 its almost end of time. lets just cal it quits 19:55:20 +Jim_Allan 19:55:32 zakim, [IBM] is really cklaws 19:55:32 +cklaws; got it 19:56:14 JA: Let's continue this next time 19:56:25 JA: "Base" user agent 19:57:08 -cklaws 19:57:09 -parente 19:57:09 -Jim_Allan 20:10:50 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:10:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-minutes.html JR 20:10:56 RRSAgent, set logs public 20:12:28 Zakim, bye 20:12:28 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim_Allan, KFord, cklaws, jr, parente 20:12:28 Zakim has left #ua 20:12:36 RRSAgent, bye 20:12:36 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-actions.rdf : 20:12:36 ACTION: JA to will do 1c [1] 20:12:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-irc#T19-08-02 20:12:36 ACTION: JR to Take a look at the wcag/uaag relationship - division of responsibility [2] 20:12:36 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/01-ua-irc#T19-12-58