TAG telcon

17 Oct 2006


See also: IRC log


Tim Berners-Lee, Dan Connolly, Noah Mendelsohn, Dave Orchard, Vincent Quint, Ed Rice, Henry S. Thompson, Norm Walsh
TV Raman
Vincent Quint
Henry S. Thompson



Next call

No regrets, Dave Orchard to scribe

Last week's minutes

HST: Read them, they were helpful to someone who missed the call

NM: They look OK

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Oct/att-0053/10-tagmem-minutes.html approved

Minutes from f2f

<DanC> (edits done. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/10/04-tagmem-minutes 2006/10/17 17:03:54 )

VQ: No plans to combine into a single document
The links from the agenda are as follows:
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/10/04-agenda.html#minutes 1.29 2006/10/10 21:04:01

VQ: Anyone requesting changes unhappy about the current state?

<DanC> minutes are ok by me
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/10/04-tagmem-minutes 2006/10/17 17:03:54
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/10/05-morning-minutes.html 2006/10/10 21:02:11
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2006/10/05-afternoon-minutes.html 2006/10/09 15:23:29

RESOLUTION: f2f minutes approved

Review of agenda

DO: Request move AC Meeting and Backplane Meeting to the end

VQ: Agreed

Submission of WS-Transfer

NM: I took Tim's start and reworked it, at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2006Oct/0061.html

DO: Haven't read this yet, sorry

<DanC> (no need to apologize; it was only available very recently.)

<Zakim> timbl, you wanted to say: A third point I was thinking of was: "Some specific feature of the WS stack is required which is not available in the HTTP protocol."

NM: To summarize: Starts with assumed motivations (no TCP support; No access to HTTP but Web Services wanted; Web Services facilities such as security necessary)
... points to history and status
... points to team comment bringing the TAG into the discussion
... Is this TimBL solo or TimBL on behalf of the TAG?

TBL: on behalf of

VQ: Yes

TBL: OK, I'm ready to send once DO has agreed

NM: Yes, 'hereby' should come out

VQ: I'll update the issues list this week

DO: So suppose we send this note, and some discussion happens -- then what?
... Any further activity the TAG would like to do?

DC: I expect we'll close issue 7 again, with the addition of some comment about WS-Transfer

DO: We're moving into a reactive mode. . .
... less proactive than I would prefer

<Noah> Specifically, "hereby" should come out because issue 7 is in fact already open. Suggest the sentence should read: The TAG has reopened issue whenToUseGet-7, in part to facilitate discussion of WS-Transfer.

<Noah> Also, we do have to edit in reference [4], which is to the 10 Oct Telcon minutes just approved, I.e. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2006Oct/att-0053/10-tagmem-minutes.html

DC: Sympathetic, but no immediate inspiration

VQ: DO, once you've read the draft, you can suggest changes

DO: Well, there's the note, and there's our future action
... Seems to me there's technology missing, which we should take the lead on, if the TAG agrees after talking about it

TBL: The HTTP arch. and the Web Services arch are to some extent distinct == a fork
... There is a large community already using WS, hence a need for something such as WS-Transfer naturally arises
... The Web Services arch is too big to force change on, it's too late to make it much more closely integrated with HTTP. . .

ER: DO, are you asking us to lead the discussion about this?

DO: Well, maybe this _is_ the discussion, i.e. "well, there's a fork, so it goes". . .
... That's not the conclusion I expected

NM: I'm comfortable for now to open the discussion, w/o trying to steer it from the start
... We have made some progress, e.g. in getting RESTful bits into the SOAP REC, even if there hasn't been much uptake
... This may be an opportunity to do something similar in this case -- that there's real value in aligning what WS is doing with what HTTP already does
... For example, managing a printer with WS would be richer if it had a URI as well as an EPR, so you can for instance use conneg

<Noah> I have prepared an edited copy of the WS-Transfer note. I believe it captures all changes suggested on this call. Will send out as soon as we decide no more changes for now.

VQ: Plan is to send a message on behalf of the TAG. Once DO reviews, TimBL can send right away if DO is happy, otherwise we can return to this next week
... But NM is not going to be here. . .

NM: I don't need another review, you can go ahead without me even if you change things

VQ: Only reason to wait is if DO is not happy

<Noah> Edited version is at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2006Oct/0063.html

DC: Haven't read latest version yet. . .

VQ: All please read after the call, unless DO says 'no', TBL can send to public list

<timbl> 0063 is OK by me.

DO: I will read by end of the day

AC meeting

VQ: DO, before you leave, any ideas for this?

DO: Versioning, perhaps?

VQ: Other suggestions?
... In Edinburgh we discussed Compact URIs (in June)
... In Cannes we reported on our activities in general, focussing on one or two issues

In Montreal, ditto, focussing on URNsAndRegistries-50

<Zakim> Noah, you wanted to say that we need to start demonstrating value

VQ: Two concrete questions:

1) Should we open an issue on tag soup vs. XML?

2) Should we use our slot at the AC on this topic?

TBL: We could try to get it scheduled at a time which would allow more worldwide participation by 'phone
... 6am or 10pm, if you had to choose?

DC, NM: 10pm

NW: 6am

<EdR> 6am

<Noah> NM: Not much preference, especially insofar as I'll be in "listen-only" mode either way.

DC: We need to be sure not to overlap too much with other AC topics. . .

VQ: So, it's just one suggestion -- any others?

TBL: Tag soup vs XML may come up whether we talk about it or not

<dorchard> I just signed on, no phone yet, any interest in versioning at the AC meeting?

<DanC> (do we have an issue about namespaces and media types? ah yes, indeed we do. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#nsMediaType-3 )

<DanC> (hmm... Subsumed by issue(s) mixedNamespaceMeaning-13 on 22 Apr 2002)

VQ: Indeed we should try to focus our contribution on architecture issues
... Should we then take this as our primary topic for the AC meeting?

<Noah> Probably a long shot in motivating those concerned, but I think I'm right that it's going to be easier to GRDDL XHTML than TAG soup. If semantic web takes off, then documents in XHTML will, in at least that particular sense, be that much more valuable.

VQ: Volunteer to start a discussion on this topic, to get the ball rolling
... We also need someone to make the presentation at the AC meeting

<DanC> hard to say, noah. adding tidy seems to be a small cost to add to GRDDL and other semantic web doodads.

VQ: Attendees will be TimBL, HST and VQ

<Noah> Yes, I suppose you're right. Especially insofar as tidy is viewed as reliable, and in my experience it is indeed surprisingly good.

HST: I did it last time, TBL usually declines on the grounds that he has his own slot, VQ as chairman tries to stay neutral. . .

VQ: I would prefer not to lead this

VQ: So, back to the tag soup vs. XML -- do we need a new issue?

DC: TBL's perspective suggests issue 51 already covers it

NM: So either we give it a new issue, or we explicitly put it under several issues
... self-description is in that category as well
... it all connects up, for example namespaces vs. microformats, where the heavier weight approach is more in line with self-describing

<DanC> standardizedFieldValues-51: Squatting on link relationship names, x-tokens, registries, and URI-based extensibility http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#standardizedFieldValues-51

DC: Can we rename issue 51, that's really what I was concerned with there

NM: That's the fine-grained aspect of this, but the self-describing stance is much broader
... The overall value of follow-your-nose is much broader than the field-value concerns of microformats

<DanC> (hmm... at some point I asked somebody to write up introducing lanuguage N+1 given languages 1...N are out there. Norm, does that rign a bell? I wonder which action, if any, that was related to.)

NM: The motivation for microformats comes from the relative weight of the thing you're trying to do (add a phone number) and the cost of doing it (a namespace declaration and use which is twice the size of the phone number)
... but to me that's a one end of a scale wrt which whole languages are at the other end

DC: The key contrast is between doing things guerilla-style, or using a URI you get via a community-approved process

TBL: And that leads on to the contrast between grounded-in-public-definitions and meaning-as-use

NM: There is a difference between avoiding collision and using a public process

[scribe missed discussion of microformat name scoping]

VQ: Issue 51 has not been much discussed between January and the Vancouver f2f
... We can wait another week to decide about the AC meeting topic
... Wrt tag soup vs. XML -- let's return to that next week as well, in terms of how we take it forward (new issue vs. ...)

TBL: I believe there's a strong desire that we give a report on what we've done

DC: I object, that's a waste of time

<ht> +0

Backplane meeting

VQ: The HCG asked if someone from the TAG will come to Ams -- what about you, HST?

HST: I will go if asked by the TAG

VQ: Is it appropriate for us to name someone

DC: Yes

<timbl> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2006/backplane/

[others]: yes

VQ: Anyone other than HST?

DC: Position statement required to get a slice of the programme

<timbl> "An XML data model can be seen as a mobile agent that carries with it selected business rules (e.g. bind statements in XForms) for interacting both with humans on the front-end and with a service-oriented architecture (SOA) on the back-end"

HST: If I plan to do that, I will send a draft to this group before doing so

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.127 (CVS log)
$Date: 2006/10/23 10:42:33 $