trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Date: 05 October 2006

<scribe> Meeting: Databinding F2F Meeting, Sofia Antipolis

<Yves> Yves: we can ask other developpers (in the spec) a call for test results

<Yves> and if we should put such gathered results in our pages, we should flag them as contributed

Pauld: if we have a call for logs, what process do we need to accept contributions?

<scribe> ACTION: ylafon to investigate IP and process about contribution of logs from third parties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-67 - Investigate IP and process about contribution of logs from third parties [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-10-12].

Review of Outstanding Issues

pauld: we need text to explain ISSUE-37 etc that we may offer more than one pattern for a particular structure, eg absence of data, but we don't offer semantics or how to choose the best pattern on offer

ISSUE-20 - Extension of Collections

pauld: useful versioning pattern based on xs:any

jonc: xs:any is Advanced

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-20 as an Advanced Pattern

ISSUE-31 enumerated restriction types

pauld: DecimalEnumeration fails in Mono

jonc: what about the rest of them?

pauld: much the same for mono, but SOAP4r copes with them all

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-20 as Advanced

ISSUE-45 attribute use optional/required

pauld: do we have examples?

gcowe: we have AttributeRequired and AttributeOptional

pauld: works with tools i've looked at so far, schema-first

jon: will toolkits bounce invalid documents, probably not an issue

pauld: and will tools prevent someone not sending it

all: seems like a generic issue, but invalid behaviour is out of scope

pauld: we can accept this as Basic and pull it out following more testing

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-45 as a Basic pattern

ISSUE-46 Fixed Attribute values

pauld: toolkits echo valid documents ok, but don't capture the fixed value in code

yves: we need operations which do more work than echo, eg increment a number

pauld: good approach, but requires different approach for each pattern, not scalable

yves: we should call for test code

pauld: this smacks of ISSUE-28, what to do if the programming language doesn't fully support a data structure
... in this case initialising or fixing a string is available in most environments, but tools don't support it
... ISSUE-28 doesn't sit happily here, we closed this with no ACTION:

" Discussion around this concluded that as long as the tools do not bail out and reject the schema and allow all valid instance docs to be processed and created (even if it allows invalid docs through) then we are happy for those structures to be included in Basic Patterns. The experience of the schema author is still good..."

pauld: in this case a ruby developer has to look for the fixed value in the schema
... this reminds me of the constrain by a pattern, information is lost in code generation

jonc: good experience doesn't prevent the user from doing the right thing, but doesn't prevent you sending invalid data

yves: you need -ve testing here

pauld: unconvinced we can test this 'black box' you have to look at the code
... we need introductory text for ISSUE-28
... under the rules of ISSUE-28 this should be Basic, but lack of fixed value in generated code make me want to set this as Advanced

gcowe: you need to include the behaviour of the source code

yves: you are welcome to do more than echo
... seeing generated code in the test report is a requirement

pauld: i did this for SOAP4r - snippits.html, lets ask people to make sure they contribute working along with a report
... so ISSUE-28 is a floor for what makes a pattern Basic, I think we can still make value judgements on a case-by-case basis
... we need to make sure our text explains this
... i think Fixed is an Advanced pattern

gcowe: i think it's Basic

Jonc: i think it's Basic

pauld: why do you want it basic?

jonc: nothing barfs

yves: we could make it basic and rip it out after more testing

pauld: so in this case they generate the placeholder, just don't populate it and you think that's good enough
... OK we've just rehashed ISSUE-28
... can live ewith either, let's have our FIRST STRAW POLL!!!!

chad, question: options for ISSUE-46

chad, option 1: Basic pattern

chad, option 2: Advanced pattern

vote: 1,2
... 2,1

<Yves> vote: 1,2

<gcowe> vote 1

<JonC> vote:1

chad, count

<chad> Question: options for ISSUE-46

<chad> Option 1: Basic pattern (2)

<chad> Option 2: Advanced pattern (1)

<chad> 3 voters: JonC (1),pauld (2,1),Yves (1,2)

<chad> Round 1: Count of first place rankings.

<chad> Candidate 1 is elected.

<chad> Winner is option 1 - Basic pattern

<gcowe> vote: 1

chad, count

<chad> Question: options for ISSUE-46

<chad> Option 1: Basic pattern (3)

<chad> Option 2: Advanced pattern (1)

<chad> 4 voters: gcowe (1),JonC (1),pauld (2,1),Yves (1,2)

<chad> Round 1: Count of first place rankings.

<chad> Candidate 1 is elected.

<chad> Winner is option 1 - Basic pattern

RESOLUTION: close ISSSUE-46 as an Basic pattern

ISSUE-67 xsi:type

pauld: known limitation of many tools, e.g. ADB 1.0: http://ws.apache.org/axis2/1_0/adb/adb-howto.html

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-67 as Advanced

ISSUE-58 anonymous complexType

jonc: we had this internally within BT but failed to work with BEA Weblogic 8.1

pauld: Paul Keil has this as being well supported. ISTR it not working well, do we need more evidence?
... very common pattern, do we want to do this?
... is that an easily fixed bug in one toolkit, or an indication of a widespread problem?
... it's no the end of the world for a pattern to be advanced
... our experience is venetian blind works well, but should we discount Russian Doll etc? I'm attracted to the minium to declare victory, but it's easier to take things out than add them in later
... LUNCH ..

ISSUE-64: Union of SimpleTypes

we have an example 'JeanSize'

pauld: can we think about making this based upon the pattern name?

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE=64 Union of simple types as an Advanced pattern

ISSUE-48 Local Elements defined by Reference

pauld: implicitly means global elements

works with toolkits AFAICT

jonc: it's how all doc/lit WSDLs work

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-48 as a Basic pattern

ISSUE-60 Local Attributes defined by Reference

pauld: deja-vu!

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-60 as a basic Pattern

ISSUE-56: simpleType resricted with min/max facets

pauld: introduces simpleTypes

jonc: chad! chad!

pauld: not like 'fixed'; value space of valid values greater than one
... explains why ISSUE-28 is a value judgement
... SOAP4r barfs at runtime

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-56 as an Advanced pattern

ISSUE-68 xs:import of Schema 1.0 namespace

George sent mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding/2006Sep/0025

pauld: so not WS-I BP compliant, and we want to be compatible with the WS-I BP
... OK, we need to think about a reference to the BP
... how do we close this issue? Advanced or don't do it?
... what's the use-case? maybe picking up a schema with this cruft in it?
... is it a problem for Advanced?

discussion of models of how WSDLs get built

jonc: we are in the Web services space, this isn't useful but not BP compliant

pauld: do I go to the BP and raise this as an issue?
... OK mark it as Advanced for now, I'll engaage the WS-I

<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to raise an issue on ISSUE-68 with the WS-I Basic Profile WG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-68 - Raise an issue on ISSUE-68 with the WS-I Basic Profile WG [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].

ISSUE-66 Enumeration based on a SimpleType

jonc: our example is based upon an Advanced pattern, so makes this Advanced?
... unless we come up with a simpler example
... does it make sense to have an enum of an enum?

pauld: or do we have other facets?
... if you're writing a schema you can do this in one type, Basic is for people authoring schemas in the main
... however Origo do this and it seems to work in their toolkits

gcowe: our use of this is possibly historical but fundamental

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-66 as an advanced pattern, needs more examples

ISSUE-15 Null datatype pattern as used by ASN.1 and others

pauld: split second pattern as ISSUE-70

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-15 accpeted empty sequence as a Basic pattern

ISSUE-10 Mapping Element and Type names

pauld: issue of death

http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/9/19-databinding-minutes.html#item01

pauld: walks through the history

yves: for Advanced this is a must and can be easily implemented, comments for original names etc

pauld: proposal for way forward: split issue into concrete patterns for name formats, python rules, includes '-', Kanji set, etc and process them as business as usual

<scribe> ACTION: pauld to build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pauld

<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-69 - Build several examples based upon existing document for ISSUE-10 [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].

ISSUE-55 simple abstract substitutionGroup pattern

jonc: leave it open, we need a concrete example / pattern

ISSUE-38 xs:any processContents value of 'skip'

gcowe: we have examples and patterns for this

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-38 as Advanced
... close ISSUE-55 as Advanced, needs example

ISSUE-50 is xs:anyType an Advanced pattern?

pauld: well duh

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-50 as an Advanced pattern

ISSUE-25 Map and Hash Patterns

pauld: we need the concrete patterns and examples from the input document

<scribe> ACTION: pauld to explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pauld

<scribe> ACTION: pdowney to explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-70 - Explode concrete patterns for ISSUE-25 hash and map [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].

ISSUE-17 Advice for representing a duration

pauld: we don't offer advice on which pattern to use, apart from grouping. Duration is an advanced datatype, leave it at that.
... do we accept duration is good for durations?

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-17 with no action

ISSUE-58 anonymous complexType

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-58 as an Advanced pattern

ISSUE-54 Sequence of choice Pattern

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-58 as an Advanced pattern

ISSUE-59 attributeGroup pattern

RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-59 as an Advanced pattern

ISSUE-14 xs:default handling

RESOLUTION: accept ISSUE-14 as an Advanced pattern

ISSUE-2 TestSuite

pauld demos where we are

<Yves> ACTION: pdowney to publish logfile format [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-71 - Publish logfile format [on Paul Downey - due 2006-10-12].

discussion of tetsuite process

pauld: genit generates palatable examples.wsdl, generates code, implements functions, deploys, runs service
... runit takes our example soap11 instance documents, fires them at the service
... result is a log file 'output.xml' and a HTML document of the implemented code 'snippits.html'
... we then need to generate a results.xml which checks the request versus response
... Ajith suggests XMLUnit, looks cool for the 95 case, but we still need hints for comparing floats etc

yves: also useful if we have +1 test cases

pauld: produced a Schematron generator, but too heavyweight for just comparing documents

yves: XMLUnit looks interesting, especially the 'exact' then 'similar' match approach, I'd like to pick up this work

pauld: does a happy dance
... will work with George on Axis, etc logs

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.127  of Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/AttributeFixed/AttributeOptional/
Succeeded: s/Baisc/Basic/
Succeeded: s/sting/string/
Succeeded: s/'/'black box' you have to look at the code/
Succeeded: s/historical/historical but fundamental/
Succeeded: s/RESOLUTION /RESOLUTION:/g
Succeeded: s/rrasgent, set logs public//
No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: pauld
Inferring Scribes: pauld
Present: pauld gcowe yves jonc
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xsd-databinding/2006Oct/0000.html
Found Date: 5 Oct 2006
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2006/10/05-databinding-minutes.html
People with action items: pauld pdowney ylafon