See also: IRC log
<antoine> Scribe: William
<antoine> Scribenick: ww
antoine: let's start, sorry for
the delay and trouble with Zakim...
... the first topic is admin
antoine: propose to accept the
minutes of previous teleconference
RESOLUTION: ACCEPT MINUTES OF PREVIOUS TELECON
scribe: next... the report on the pittsburgh f2f meeting
scribe: i sent around this week the cleaned version of the joint meeting with the W3C ... Architecture....
<TomB> +1 well done re: Joint Meeting minutes! :-)
scribe: propose to also accept
these minutes today
... so we can send them around to the wider audience
RESOLUTION: ACCEPT MINUTES OF PITTSBURGH JOINT MEETING
RESOLVED ACCEPT MINUTES AND OUTCOMES OF PITTSBURGH F2F MEETING
scribe: before next item i have a
question: is the current agenda complete?
... anyone have something that is not listed, use cases, vocabularies?
... as you have maybe noticed this agenda is really long
... idea is to keep the agenda long so we have a place where relevant stuff is listed...
... they will be at least available for the summary so that everyone is aware
... don't expect we will go through the entire agenda
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to point out that http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCases#Cluster:_Digital_objects is missing (as pointed out on the list) - am adding to next week's
scribe: anyone noticed anything missing?
TomB: pointed out on the list
that cluster on digital objects is missing
... so adding that to next week's agenda
bvatant: what is missing
TomB: digital objects
bvatant: i'm part of that
... missing cluster, citations
... have name of cluster with wrong names
... tom will take care of updating that point
... anything else?
... ok, if you notice something that is missing, please send a mail before the next teleconference
... moving on to the next topic
antoine: as opposed to
what is listed in the agenda we have six clusters and not
... was some discussion on the plans of the digital objects cluster team, so maybe you want to say something here to explain a bit?
markva: which tasks do we have?
the first would be to consider which UCs actually belong to our
cluster... might be some overlap with the citation
... main thing is to come to a more structured or homogenized sdescription of the UCs
... we have really a lot of UCs
... can probably not just append them to some part of our report
... goals are reported very differently
... but are recurring themes
... what i did is try in email to the list just like the topics and requirements that we did before
... try to come up with a list of a code and description for the goal
... see if we can replace the goal text with these goal codes
... meeting yesterday with people from digital object cluster team
... thought it would be useful to get your opinion of that and see if we can adopt that methodology for other clusters...
antoine: at first glance it seems
to me that these concerns are really right to the point
... i would say that perhaps it's a bit premature to discuss that today if the other clusters have not really thought about the work they have to do on their own use case
... but we should really have a discussion very soon because i see clearly the problems
markva: would be nice if would respond on the list...
emma: suggest if you want to
curate the goals of all the use case clusters, it would be nice
to have a wiki page... start with the goals that markva's
cluster has identified
... so we only have one page
... not many pages
antoine: wouldn't that cause lots of duplication
markva: i think its the same thing as the requirements and topics... need a place to list them , discuss , curate... i think its very handy
emma: also wondering how much
these goals overlap with requirements
... there is wiki page with requirements... almost empty
... if you have the goals... what would be the requirements?
markva: maybe the goals are a
good place to start... if we get that coherently than we can
move on to the dimensions and requirements
... goals are hte most basic thing that use cases can accomplish
... requirements can be something more detailed
antoine: if the digital object
cluster team is happy to start such a goal place then you are
welcome to start it
... we can see if we find the same things with the other clusters
... or at least on a similar level, i could see the goals being different
AlexanderH: actually antoine i
think you are right
... they should be different
<edsu> markva's email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Nov/0003.html
AlexanderH: but actually much of
the goals are detailed
... if you want to keep the detailed goals the way they are i'm not sure it makes sense
markva: that's a good point, what
i did, the initial list we have now is a reflection of the
goals people have put into the use cacses
... that's really all it is
... if it's too detailed we need to make up our mind what is a goal and what is too detailed
... at least this discussion needs to be initiated
antoine: ok, let's start the
discussion in the coming days
... that's for the methodological side of it
... we also have to be more concrete and think of shepherds or rapporteurs to ...
... have action on the agenda for people not at the F2F to volunteer to shepherd
ACTION: People who didn't attend the face-to-face should volunteer to shepherd a new use case. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]
antoine: if we go to list of use cases
antoine: jodi has indicated for
the individual use cases if they are lacking a shepherd or
... turns out we have a bit more than the seven that are listed as orphaned on the agenda
<AlexanderH> one hint I think the detailed goals should be kept this way and not be generalized
antoine: so really if people can volunteer to take care of them that will be really welcome
<jodi> there are 10 orphaned
antoine: need to sort that really soon
<AlexanderH> not like scribed
antoine: if there are cases that are not in clusters we might miss something really important
TomB: would be good if people who
could not attend the F2F could volunteer to take care of the
remaining cases because otherwise the work will fall
disproportionately on the people who were able to attend
... would be good to distribute that a little bit better
antoine: actually i'm looking at the list of the cases and the ones for which jodi indicated they were lacking shepherds and there are some that are already clustered and i'm a bit suprised
emma: just that some of the use
cases that didnt have a rapporteur were adopted
... wasn't necessarily presented
antoine: for example, use case
data in Use Case Linked Data and legacy library
... had a small presentation on that was it by gordon?
antoine: the next one that is orphaned is the... Archipel project...
marcia are you around can you take care of this use case?
marcia: what should we do?
antoine: in your case just be
prepared to act as the shepherd for that use case
... the curators of the cluster may as kyou some qustions
... in your specific case it would be nice if you could send the presentation that you showed me to the list
... and then the other use cases that have no shepherd are in the not yet cluster
antoine: ok so then we have all the actions on people to curate clusters....
<antoine> ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action02] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: Kai and Ed to curate citations cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]
antoine: Bernard, i think you said you were in that one as well (that one digital objects cluster)
bvatant: i'm not aware of that....
antoine: i think i've seen your name in irc channel
bvatant: i think this was a mistake of the scribe
<antoine> ACTION: Mark (and Jodi and Asaf) to curate digital objects cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]
<emma> People who didn't attend the F2F should volunteer to help curate the clusters
<antoine> ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of december [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action07] [CONTINUES]
antoine: then we have an action of people who were not at the F2F to volunteer to join a cluster
<antoine> ACTION: People who were not at the face-to-face meeting volunteer to join a cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]
antoine: not to have this
continuing for a long time
... maybe having one more week in which the people may volunteer
... otherwise we have an issue with the curators knowing if they are alone or if someone will join after a while
... unless someone sees it differently, would suggest to close the action next week
emma: suggest to send around an email so that people not on the telecon will know they have to do something
antoine: ok i will send something
closer to the call
... anyone have something to add to the use case topic before we moveon?
antoine: the first item to
discuss is how we go forward with the topics and how we
organise them into categories
... first way is to use the wiki category system to connect use cases to topics
... second proposal by bvatant to create rdf description of topics
... next proposal have page with topics as subtitles
jodi: i don't think we really talked about it any further
emma: i created something on the
wiki just to show how it will look like, so i started to
aggregate the categories and subcategories
... here is what you get for a group of topics that are LLD
... one page per subcategory
... if you look at....
... you can see you have a description of the topic
... probably a good starting point if you want toe elaborate
... copy and paste these pieces of text into the final report
... i think that's a useful way to go forward
antoine: that was really some fleshing out of what jodi has proposed
TomB: i just edited one of the
category pages that emma set up
... i think the issue here is, how do we get from an analysis of the parts
... to a complete report
... and the crux of the question is whether we want to keep everything in one document
... editing sections of one big document
... or easier to have many smaller documents
... and consolidate them later on
<jodi> with Transclusion, we could aggregate the individual pages: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Transclusion
TomB: initially i was in favour
of consolidated document
... but i see the advantages of smaller files for curators
<emma> ww: in favor of the latter
<emma> ... easier to build a big documents from small ones
<Marcia> Are topics also have curators?
jodi: actually you might have the
... talking about transclusion
... transclusion is a way of pulling small parts into a larger document
... without copy and paste
... can make a larger document by pulling together with transclusion
<TomB> +1 for smaller documents using transclusion
<emma> not tested
antoine: that does make sense... question is whether this stuff is activated in our wiki
jodi: in media wiki it is
activated by default
... we should try it but i think so
antoine: ok... could anyone have
a try just to check?
... if that works than that's clearly a point for the individual page solution to be the preferred one
... tom or emma or jodi could you make a small test because you have started editing these pages?
jodi: ok, i can take a look
antoine: thank you
TomB: shoudl we take an action
for jodi, having a proof of concept page that uses
... that uses a lot of smaller pages... having that on the agenda for the next call would help us move forward
<scribe> ACTION: Jodi to make a proof of concept transclusion page for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-lld-minutes.html#action09]
antoine: was also bvatant 's proposition of owl and rdf
bvatant: actually i had a very
sketchy model of what could be done about the current content,
topics, use cases and so on...
... i see that things have evolved quite a lot since the f2f
... if this is interesting i have to revisit it on the basis of how things are now organised
... i have nothing very interesting to show right now
... but if people think its interesting to go this way
... the idea is to have a model of what we are working on...
... as rdf data... eating your own dog food
... but maybe the way jodi proposes is nmore efficient
... i can continue the action, but don't expect something very efficient in the week to come
bvatant: i have to catch up on everything that happened on the f2f and i'm not yet there
<edsu> bvatant: i'm not either :-)
<edsu> bvatant: and i was there! :-)
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to suggest that we focus on producing the document
TomB: what are our requirements
here... i think our requirements is really to get the meeting
notes to a draft of the report
... i think its an interesting idea to use rdf descriptions, but i'm not sure what requirement that's meeting
... not sure that would really help us move towards a completed report
... unless the rdf would help us create interesting visualisations that we could use in the report
... otherwise i suggest we mmove on getting a rough draft ideally beforethe holidays
<Zakim> antoine, you wanted to link to Paul's tool
antoine: to think about
mentioning, TomB was talking about visualisation
... wondering if bvatant 's idea of rdf description would
... visualisation of clusters and vocabularies
... perhaps this could be related to the topic as well
... i would support what TomB said, but keep an eye on this idea of bvatant 's and try to relate them
bvatant: to go along with what
TomB said to get on with the taks at hand and the bandwidth of
... doesn't seem like a priority task
... unless it seems like it is useful for a visualisation purposes
... maybe when the overall document structure is more settled
... will be easier to produce
<Zakim> TomB, you wanted to ask if Paul's tool is in the agenda - maybe Ed can comment?
TomB: occurs to me that paul's
... is it in the agenda?
antoine: it is in the vocabulary section
antoine: an item to report on
... perhaps we can jump to that specific item right now if it's really close to the issue on this rdf discription
... edsu do you have something to say?
edsu: not right now
antoine: ok we'll keep an eye and come back to it
edsu: rdf description of what?
antoine: bvatant is proposing that we create and rdf description of the topics... i think htis would be more or less related to what paul has done
edsu: what purpose would it
... other than eating our own tasteless dog food
antoine: i think everyone agreed
it might be a low priority item...
... have a mapping, more dynamic...
... not discuss it right now but ckeep it in mind for the future
... something that might be a bit more urgent...
TomB: just wanted to ask edsu
... how does paul's tool work?
... what's behind that?
... is it something that can generate other visualisations that might be useful for the report?
... what's your sense of the usefulness or how we can use the tool that paul put together
edsu: my understanding is he
bascically scraped to wiki
... using regexps
... to get the data out into another form which he put into a database
edsu: and put the web app on top of it
edsu: those are the database fixtures
edsu: the data he scraped out
saved it off into these files
... i don't know ho... you'd have to ask paul if the routines he wrote... are things that can be run routinely or not?
TomB: it's available on github so in principle we could use this if we saw a need to extend it
<digikim> I didn't notice that the start time had changed
<digikim> emma: ok, thanks
edsu: it's on github... he
actually made it run somewhere on the web...
... he found it useful to grapple with.. because he's new to the group... to get an idea of the use cases etc.
... used as a tool for himself to try to understand
<edsu> sorry, i had the wrong url for the data that paul scraped from the wiki: https://github.com/paulwalk/lldvis/blob/master/db/seeds.rb
antoine: keep in agenda... come back to it a bt later
Marcia: i want to get back to the topics pages that emma created
<Zakim> Back, you wanted to the topics: what should be included in the topic pages Emma created? Who will contribute? Will they be curated?
Marcia: i wonder what should be
in each subtopic
... who will contribute...
... top the topics, the sub-pages
antoine: first the fact that the
topics are related to the use cases would be exteremely
... there's no doubt about that
... that's how the topic page started
... w.r.t. the content of the page, the description, the one liners could also be put there
emma: wanted to make that a
... when we're curating the use cases clusters we can add it to the topic by using two square brackets
... and that will add it to the topic page
emma: and look in the minutes for more detail
antoine: i think we have to wrap
it very shortly, so keep this in the agenda for next
... just have a quick rush on the actions
... to check whether there is anything specific to say on that
<rayd> Admin topic ...... next Thursday is a holiday in the US
antoine: other business?
(continue all other actions)
<rsinger> next thursday?
antoine: if noone has any other
... thank you everyone for attending
<antoine> ACTION: GordonD and antoine to study use cases that relate to vocabulary merging use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: Jeff to review the UK eGovernment document on identifiers. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: Emma and Antoine to create use case DATA.SEARCH-OPTIMIZATION [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: for each use case champion: on the Vocabularies page, link to each URL use case that uses it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/mIncubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: Ross to create a page with LLD data sets on the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/07-lld-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]
<antoine> ACTION: ww to present on how to use CKAN [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-lld-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]
<antoine> ACTION: on everyone to update the Events page (http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/LLD/Events) on the wiki regularly [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action05] [CONTINUES]