SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 31 May 2005

hi ben

<benadida> Hi Dan

<benadida> alright, I am a Zakim newbie still (Ralph usually helps me), so what do we need to do to start logging and all? ah thank yhou

its all in hand

we're logging

who are we expecting today?

<benadida> Steven

<benadida> (yes, we miss you Ralph)

<benadida> Steven is on his way in

steven: last week I keynoted at News Summit in Amsterdam
... 'set cat amongst the pigeons' (I'm told), in that their doc formats hardwire metadata vocabs, so need revision for new properties.
... very rigid
... nice thing about rdf/a is that you can add new metadata at will
... i'll be talking to the iptc agm next week in london, on same topic
... also talked at xtech conference

[...]

I had some agenda fodder in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0047.html

1) grddl/xslt'ing rdf/a

2) rdf links

ben: thx for rdfs... would be good to get jeremy to take a look
... steven too?

<benadida> ACTION: Steven and Ben to take a look at the RDFS DanBri put together [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html#action01]

danbri: some fiddly decisions... what namespace uri, what syntax to use, etc (see comments in the rdfs)

steven: doesn't really fit in the html doc itself

ben: could make it a tf note

steven: part of the reasoning behind this is.... much as with HTML 4 profile, we defined things separately
... since detail could change, and be new version
... change to the thing at the namespace
... mechanism is extensible
... after CR, we won't add unqualified properties
... need to use a new ns
... alternate relationship... can specify conditions
... by language, media type, ...

danbri: would be nice if we could derrive my doc from your doc via xslt

mark: yup

ben: is this separate doc just an rdfization of the htm

danbri: that's the intent

(I tried not to get too creative... but there are some points that need review)

danbri: i wouldn't be averse to pushing this out as a note

steve: if you want to take our stuff and reprsenet it as rdf, the html would be happy

ben: could be a perfect candidate for a tf note

steven: am suprised there's no standard notion of 'document', so you had to invent your own

danbri: i was trying to avoid ratholes

danbir: we can't appeal to Docuemnt=xml Document

mark: stylesheets etc...
... also there are other relationships
... js etc
... also <style src= attribs, or <script ...

therefore when we define Document, we should be clear it isn't just XHTML2 or XML doc

ben: moving on
... i'll look into this being a tf note
... Integration with GRDDL
... steven, mark... could you consider adding something to the namespace document for xhtml2 to point to the XSLT that turns XHTML2 RDF/A into RDF/XML?

(conventions per the GRDDL note)

http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2005/SUBM-grddl-20050516/ has details

http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2005/SUBM-grddl-20050516/#ns-bind

danbri: your plans for the xhtml2 ns doc?

steven: whatever tim said!

some xhtml doc there

ben: right now you don't plan to have a schema doc there?
...

mark: looking at various schema languages, so complicated

steven: we'd have to look at how you do it in other schema language

(some discussion of use of some modules)

mark: eg you could write an atom schema that importted bits of xhtml2

(detail of how GRDDL interacts with schema modularity)

mark: if i made an xhtml2rdf transform, what's the difference between that an grddl?

ben: same thing, really

mark: we'll have to make that xslt anyway
... I had an xslt early on... but we've changed the architecture since
... less complex nesting now
... only outstanding thing now is qname processing
... my proposal was to write functions that echo the forthcoming xpath2 functions which manage qname-based strings

ben: lets bring the xslt people back together
... this is the right point

danbri: +1

mark: i don't have much time, but ... i'm inclined to have a go, as a final test
... edge cases only became obvious after writing the xslt last time

<scribe> ACTION: mark talk with jeremy on public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf re xslt parser for xhtml2/rdf notation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html#action02]

danbri: getting that xslt will improve testing, (a) as we'll have a focal point for defining the mapping (b) many more people can explore test cases, queries etc.

ben: bnodes...

mark: i just posted my summary of the situation
... steven and i aren't completely against the 2 attribute solution
... but the problem (URIs/IRIs) really lies in RDF's world, not in the markup
... and you have this quirky situation of trying to id a node without using global IDs
... how do you hide that? an rdf/uri problem
... not that we ignore it
... but adding more attribs takes away from some of the simplicity
... what we have now is very simple, based on earlier html conventions
... adding new attribs to encode different ways of identifying makes things more complex
... the moment you name something with an ID, you get annoying situation that you can't talk about it yourself
... the outside world can talk about it
... but ID="x" prevents me from making global statements
... doesn't work

<Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0049.html

mark: so i've come back to xpointer soln
... not sure if the objections to it were on basis of what it's really arguing
... comments from dan and jjc

jjc - doesn't like it aesthetically

scribe: i do like it, as takes things into realm of uris
... dan's msg is abuot it creating confusion

mark: to be clear, that the xpointer be dereferenced
... we don't store that uri as a triple
... the serializer shoudl go off and find the node with the id=x, and then genrate a local bnode for it
... cloaked request to the serializer to hide this node
... generate a uri that's different to the one you'd normally generate
... you get a local name for that node

(is this a skolem function, or do i have my terminology wrong?)

<Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest the issue will be encountered in terms of attribute content, not attribute name

versus

<benadida> ACTION: Dan to summarize discussions about bnode on mailing list (fallback to Ben) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

<benadida> Dan, can you do the generation of meetings notes?

rssagent, draft minutes

ah thx

<Steven> and now:

RDF-in-XHTML-TF telecon

31 May 2005

Attendees

Contents

Summary of Action Items