13:51:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
13:51:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-irc
13:59:36 <benadida> benadida has joined #swbp
14:00:46 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has now started
14:00:53 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
14:00:54 <danbri> hi ben
14:01:00 <benadida> Hi Dan
14:01:21 <danbri> danbri has changed the topic to: SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0046.html
14:01:26 <benadida> alright, I am a Zakim newbie still (Ralph usually helps me), so what do we need to do to start logging and all? ah thank yhou
14:01:32 <danbri> its all in hand
14:01:57 <danbri> rrsagent, bookmark?
14:01:57 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-irc#T14-01-57
14:02:00 <danbri> we're logging
14:02:04 <danbri> zakim, who is on the call?
14:02:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ben_Adida
14:02:14 <danbri> who are we expecting today? 
14:02:21 <benadida> Steven
14:02:34 <benadida> (yes, we miss you Ralph)
14:04:42 <benadida> Steven is on his way in
14:04:59 <Zakim> +Danbri
14:05:21 <Steven> Steven has joined #swbp
14:05:30 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-bhome
14:05:30 <Zakim> I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for steven-bhome
14:05:36 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-home
14:05:36 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:05:38 <Zakim> +Steven
14:05:50 <MarkB_> MarkB_ has joined #swbp
14:06:30 <Zakim> +??P12
14:06:33 <MarkB_> zakim, i am ?
14:06:33 <Zakim> +MarkB_; got it
14:07:12 <danbri> steven: last week I keynoted at News Summit in Amsterdam
14:07:42 <danbri> ...'set cat amongst the pigeons' (I'm told), in that their doc formats hardwire metadata vocabs, so need revision for new properties.
14:07:51 <danbri> ...very rigid
14:08:04 <danbri> ...nice thing about rdf/a is that you can add new metadata at will
14:08:21 <danbri> ...i'll be talking to the iptc agm next week in london, on same topic
14:08:30 <danbri> ...also talked at xtech conference
14:09:09 <danbri> [...]
14:10:09 <danbri> q+
14:14:50 <danbri> q-
14:15:13 <danbri> I had some agenda fodder in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0047.html
14:15:27 <danbri> 1) grddl/xslt'ing rdf/a
14:15:32 <danbri> 2) rdf links
14:19:09 <danbri> ben: thx for rdfs... would be good to get jeremy to take a look
14:19:12 <danbri> ...steven too?
14:19:44 <benadida> ACTION: Steven and Ben to take a look at the RDFS DanBri put together
14:22:18 <danbri> danbri: some fiddly decisions... what namespace uri, what syntax to use, etc (see comments in the rdfs)
14:22:31 <danbri> steven: doesn't really fit in the html doc itself
14:22:37 <danbri> ben: could make it a tf note
14:23:01 <danbri> steven: part of the reasoning behind this is.... much as with HTML 4 profile, we defined things separately
14:23:16 <danbri> ...since detail could change, and be new version
14:23:37 <danbri> steven: change to the thing at the namespace
14:24:29 <danbri> ...mechanism is extensible
14:24:37 <danbri> ...after CR, we won't add unqualified properties
14:24:41 <danbri> ...need to use a new ns
14:26:39 <danbri> steven: alternate relationship... can specify conditions
14:26:47 <danbri> ...by language, media type, ...
14:27:37 <danbri> danbri: would be nice if we could derrive my doc from your doc via xslt
14:27:39 <danbri> mark: yup
14:28:12 <danbri> ben: is this separate doc just an rdfization of the htm
14:28:16 <danbri> danbri: that's the intent
14:28:28 <danbri> (I tried not to get too creative... but there are some points that need review)
14:30:16 <danbri> danbri: i wouldn't be averse to pushing this out as a note
14:30:27 <danbri> steve: if you want to take our stuff and reprsenet it as rdf, the html would be happy
14:30:44 <danbri> ben: could be a perfect candidate for a tf note
14:31:52 <danbri> steven: am suprised there's no standard notion of 'document', so you had to invent your own
14:32:26 <danbri> danbri: i was trying to avoid ratholes
14:33:24 <danbri> danbir: we can't appeal to Docuemnt=xml Document
14:33:32 <danbri> mark: stylesheets etc...
14:33:36 <danbri> ...also there are other relationships 
14:33:38 <danbri> ...js etc
14:33:50 <danbri> ...also <style src= attribs, or <script ...
14:34:16 <danbri> therefore when we define Document, we should be clear it isn't just XHTML2 or XML doc
14:34:19 <danbri> ben: moving on
14:34:33 <danbri> ...i'll look into this being a tf note
14:34:42 <danbri> ben: Integration with GRDDL
14:35:20 <danbri> ...steven, mark... could you consider adding something to the namespace document for xhtml2 to point to the XSLT that turns XHTML2 RDF/A into RDF/XML?
14:35:27 <danbri> (conventions per the GRDDL note)
14:35:48 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2005/SUBM-grddl-20050516/ has details
14:36:06 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2005/SUBM-grddl-20050516/#ns-bind
14:36:30 <danbri> danbri: your plans for the xhtml2 ns doc?
14:36:33 <danbri> steven: whatever tim said! 
14:36:37 <danbri> some xhtml doc there
14:38:03 <danbri> ben: right now you don't plan to have a schema doc there?
14:38:26 <danbri> ...
14:38:36 <danbri> mark: looking at various schema languages, so complicated
14:39:26 <danbri> steven: we'd have to look at how you do it in some schema language
14:39:30 <danbri> s/some/other/
14:40:01 <danbri> (some discussion of use of some modules)
14:40:10 <danbri> mark: eg you could write an atom schema that importted bits of xhtml2
14:40:50 <danbri> (detail of how GRDDL interacts with schema modularity)
14:41:58 <danbri> mark: if i made an xhtml2rdf transform, what's the difference between that an grddl?
14:42:06 <danbri> ben: same thing, really
14:42:24 <danbri> mark: we'll have to make that xslt anyway
14:42:30 <danbri> q+
14:43:08 <benadida> ack danbri
14:44:22 <danbri> mark: I had an xslt early on... but we've changed the architecture since
14:44:28 <danbri> ...less complex nesting now
14:44:36 <danbri> ...only outstanding thing now is qname processing
14:45:07 <danbri> ...my proposal was to write functions that echo the forthcoming xpath2 functions which manage qname-based strings
14:45:16 <danbri> ben: lets bring the xslt people back together
14:45:26 <danbri> ...this is the right point
14:45:29 <danbri> danbri: +1
14:46:02 <danbri> mark: i don't have much time, but ... i'm inclined to have a go, as a final test
14:46:08 <danbri> q+ to note re testing
14:46:20 <danbri> mark: edge cases only became obvious after writing the xslt last time
14:47:38 <danbri> action: mark talk with jeremy on public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf re xslt parser for xhtml2/rdf notation 
14:48:02 <danbri> q-
14:49:05 <danbri> danbri: getting that xslt will improve testing, (a) as we'll have a focal point for defining the mapping (b) many more people can explore test cases, queries etc.
14:49:10 <danbri> ben: bnodes...
14:49:19 <danbri> mark: i just posted my summary of the situation
14:49:50 <danbri> ... steven and i aren't completely against the 2 attribute solution
14:50:02 <danbri> ...but the problem (URIs/IRIs) really lies in RDF's world, not in the markup
14:50:21 <danbri> ...and you have this quirky situation of trying to id a node without using global IDs
14:50:29 <danbri> ...how do you hide that? an rdf/uri problem
14:50:32 <danbri> ...not that we ignore it
14:50:42 <danbri> ...but adding more attribs takes away from some of the simplicity
14:50:45 <Steven> zakim, mute danbri
14:50:45 <Zakim> Danbri should now be muted
14:51:23 <danbri> ...what we have now is very simple, based on earlier html conventions
14:51:47 <danbri> ...adding new attribs to encode different ways of identifying makes things more complex
14:52:09 <danbri> q+ to suggest the issue will be encountered in terms of attribute content, not attribute name
14:52:24 <danbri> mark: the moment you name something with an ID, you get annoying situation that you can't talk about it yourself
14:52:29 <danbri> ...the outside world can talk about it
14:52:50 <danbri> ...but ID="x" prevents me from making global statements
14:52:53 <danbri> ...doesn't work
14:52:58 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005May/0049.html
14:52:59 <danbri> ...so i've come back to xpointer soln
14:53:12 <danbri> ...not sure if the objections to it were on basis of what it's really arguing
14:53:18 <danbri> ...comments from dan and jjc
14:53:25 <danbri> jjc - doesn't like it aesthetically
14:53:37 <danbri> ...i do like it, as takes things into realm of uris
14:53:56 <danbri> ...dan's msg is abuot it creating confusion
14:54:08 <danbri> mark: to be clear, that the xpointer be dereferenced
14:54:14 <danbri> ...we don't store that uri as a triple
14:54:29 <danbri> ...the serializer shoudl go off and find the node with the id=x, and then genrate a local bnode for it
14:54:48 <danbri> ...cloaked request to the serializer to hide this node
14:55:00 <danbri> ...generate a uri that's different to the one you'd normally generate
14:55:32 <Steven> q+ to say there doesn't have to be an id
14:56:00 <danbri> mark: you get a local name for that node
14:56:45 <danbri> (is this a skolem function, or do i have my terminology wrong?)
14:57:01 <benadida> zakim, ack danbri
14:57:01 <Zakim> unmuting Danbri
14:57:02 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest the issue will be encountered in terms of attribute content, not attribute name
14:57:04 <Zakim> I see Steven on the speaker queue
15:01:59 <danbri> <link about="#some(a)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="dan@example.com" />
15:01:59 <danbri> 	<link about="#some(b)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="libby@example.net" />
15:02:01 <danbri> versus
15:02:04 <danbri> <link about="#some(a)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="dan@example.com" />
15:02:09 <danbri> 	<link about="foo#some(b)" rel="foaf:mbox" href="libby@example.net" />
15:15:33 <benadida> ACTION: Dan to summarize discussions about bnode on mailing list (fallback to Ben)
15:17:07 <Zakim> -Steven
15:17:09 <Zakim> -MarkB_
15:17:09 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
15:17:15 <benadida> Dan, can you do the generation of meetings notes?
15:17:17 <Zakim> -Danbri
15:17:18 <Zakim> SW_BPD(rdfxhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:17:20 <Zakim> Attendees were Ben_Adida, Danbri, Steven
15:17:23 <danbri> zakim, please draft minutes
15:17:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'please draft minutes', danbri
15:17:30 <danbri> rssagent, draft minutes
15:17:34 <danbri> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html danbri
15:17:48 <danbri> rrsagent, make minutes public
15:17:48 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', danbri.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:18:03 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
15:18:07 <danbri> ah thx
15:18:11 <Steven> and now:
15:18:16 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:18:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html Steven
15:18:40 <danbri> benadida, will http://www.w3.org/2005/05/31-swbp-minutes.html do?
15:18:54 <benadida> yes, that's good, I will rope Ralph into helping me pretty them up :)
15:20:01 <benadida> benadida has left #swbp
15:28:01 <danbri> danbri has left #swbp