IRC log of dawg on 2005-05-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:17:25 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:17:25 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/05/17-dawg-irc

14:17:48 [JanneS]

thanks

14:21:49 [DanC]

fun with SPARQL and my itinerary:

14:21:50 [DanC]

SELECT ?ar WHERE { [ t:arrivalTime ?ar; k:toLocation [ apt:iataCode "AMS" ] ] }

14:21:57 [DanC]

SPARQLer Results

14:21:57 [DanC]

ar

14:21:57 [DanC]

"13:45"

14:22:29 [AndyS]

:-)

14:23:00 [kendall]

yeah, you can score chicks with that kind of magic! :>

14:23:02 [HiroyukiS]

HiroyukiS has joined #DAWG

14:23:32 [DanC]

SELECT ?ar WHERE { [ cal:dtend ?ar; k:toLocation [ apt:iataCode "AMS" ] ] }

14:23:39 [DanC]

SPARQLer Results

14:23:39 [DanC]

ar

14:23:39 [DanC]

"2005-05-24T13:45:00"

14:24:02 [AndyS]

"Pass results are not a prediction of the future. Your arrival may differ"

14:24:22 [DanC]

hey, it's encoded in RDF. It *must* be true.

14:24:23 [DanC]

;-)

14:25:07 [AndyS]

At the moment it is ... temporal montonicity not implemented (fixed in the next release)

14:25:35 [AndyS]

"this fact may be withdrawn at any time"

14:27:35 [kendall]

DanC: fyi, I can only stay 75 minutes today; not sure how long the agenda is...

14:27:47 [DanC]

well, the protocol stuff is at the beginning

14:27:56 [kendall]

'k

14:28:17 [kendall]

i've gotta get my powerbook to the delivery service by noon ;>

14:28:25 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has now started

14:28:32 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:28:37 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P11 is AndyS

14:28:37 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:28:54 [AndyS]

Oh dear - gravity problems?

14:28:59 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:29:12 [Zakim]

+Kendall_Clark

14:29:18 [Zakim]

+Yoshio

14:29:22 [DanC]

Zakim, take up item 1

14:29:22 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0237.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:29:26 [kendall]

(hard drive died on sunday)

14:30:01 [AndyS]

Ouch

14:30:03 [Zakim]

+??P20

14:30:04 [kendall]

it's toast!

14:30:15 [Yoshio]

oh, too bad, kendall

14:30:15 [JanneS]

uh, did someone change pass code..

14:30:23 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:30:27 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:30:34 [AndyS]

It's 7333#

14:30:35 [JanneS]

Zakim, IPcaller is JanneS

14:30:35 [Zakim]

+JanneS; got it

14:30:50 [DanC]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:30:50 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, ??P20, ??P21, JanneS

14:31:01 [HiroyukiS]

Zakim, ??P20 is HiroyukiS

14:31:01 [Zakim]

+HiroyukiS; got it

14:32:00 [kendall]

wow, janne, i didn't understand any of that ;>

14:32:10 [kendall]

Bannerjee?

14:32:27 [JanneS]

banerjee

14:32:32 [kendall]

Banerjee, got it

14:33:11 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:33:43 [Zakim]

+JosD

14:33:54 [kendall]

so, if you have a powerbook, I recommend two things: (1) don't ignore drive clicking noises; it's a known, progressively worsening problem; (2) get the S.M.A.R.T. utility thingie that displays drive status on the desktop

14:33:58 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:33:58 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:34:14 [kendall]

Steve H?

14:34:44 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:34:44 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:35:10 [DanC]

3 May minutes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0200.html

14:35:25 [JanneS]

approved minutes from 2 minutes ago

14:35:30 [JanneS]

from 2 weeks ago, sorry

14:36:04 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:36:04 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Next meeting, schedule to LC" taken up [from DanC]

14:36:06 [AndyS]

Intros?

14:36:12 [DanC]

jeen_ has to convey regrets for the telcon

14:37:55 [JanneS]

discussing last call schedule, background in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0219.html

14:40:05 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:40:10 [kendall]

hi pat

14:40:14 [kendall]

erp

14:40:52 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:40:55 [JanneS]

looking for volunteer to analyse grammar before lc

14:42:05 [JanneS]

is something missing from Dan's list?

14:42:50 [JanneS]

DanC: would be useful to have formal definitions before lc

14:43:54 [JanneS]

Pat: feeling enough quilty to do the check for formalilities :)

14:45:38 [JanneS]

Dan: we're looking for volunteers and if they don't show up, they are assumed to rely on others' view

14:46:10 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:46:10 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:46:11 [DanC]

PatH: at risk next week

14:46:21 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:46:21 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HiroyukiS

14:46:33 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:46:33 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JanneS

14:46:39 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:46:39 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose HiroyukiS

14:46:41 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:46:42 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Yoshio

14:46:52 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:46:52 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose JanneS

14:46:59 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:46:59 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose AndyS

14:47:06 [AndyS]

I can scribe but I will need a backup for QL items

14:47:19 [kendall]

i can help andy too

14:47:23 [AndyS]

Tx

14:47:26 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:47:26 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:47:32 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:47:32 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "issue: xmlAbstractSyntax" taken up [from DanC]

14:47:33 [JanneS]

next meeting May 24th, Chair: Dan, Scribe: Andy

14:47:37 [kendall]

(having to mute yrself to type SUCKS!)

14:48:41 [JanneS]

Kendall has not seen critical mass for this work - looks like a candidate for future work.

14:50:02 [JanneS]

proposal is to postpone as in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0235.html

14:50:03 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:50:03 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:50:09 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:50:09 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:50:27 [patH]

kendall, you need a phone with a mute button on it.

14:50:32 [DanC]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:50:32 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, HiroyukiS, ??P21, JanneS, JosD, PatH

14:50:33 [kendall]

yep :>

14:52:00 [DanC]

PROPOSED: to postpone xmlAbstractSyntax on the grounds that it seems more straightforward to do in a later version

14:52:42 [DanC]

so RESOLVED.

14:53:32 [DanC]

relevant edits already done

14:53:38 [DanC]

only thing left is to update issues list

14:53:42 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:53:42 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "issue wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC]

14:54:06 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:54:06 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:54:48 [kendall]

coped w/ some mods, btw

14:55:17 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:55:17 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:57:57 [JanneS]

discussing implementation experience of sparql protocol interfaces..

14:59:54 [JanneS]

Andy elaborated their work where the client doesn't parse the query expression but rather reacts on the content-type sent by the server (application/xml for variable bindings and application/rdf+xml for graphs)

15:01:19 [JanneS]

Kendall said theirs is similar in that it reacts on the mime type and constructs either an Iterator or a TripleStore interface object at the client.

15:02:43 [AndyS]

Dan's design for API has "requestGraph" -> RDF and "requestResultSet" -> XMl results

15:02:53 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:02:53 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:02:54 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: try splitting SparqlQuery interface into SparqlGraph SparqlBindings, say

15:03:33 [kendall]

My point earlier about Dan's design idea is that it simplifies the Out Message (since it's not an xs:choice any more), but it does that at the cost of doubling the number of operations and interfaces, which doesn't seem like a net simplicifaction to me

15:03:38 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:03:38 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:04:22 [DanC]

default-graph-uri named-graph-uri query

15:04:35 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:04:35 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "issue fromUnionQuery" taken up [from DanC]

15:05:20 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:05:20 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:06:04 [kendall]

I still believe, for the record, that WSDL machinery allows a deployment to rename all the concrete HTTP query parameters but declare their relation (or mapping) to the abstract ones...I guess we'll cross this bridge, if it is one, when we get to it.

15:06:10 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:06:10 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:06:20 [JanneS]

1.36 of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/proto-wd/ includes default-graph-uri

15:07:03 [DanC]

"the protocol must be preferred by a SPARQL query service."

15:08:34 [JanneS]

Kendall: operation per interface approach enables easy check for conformance

15:08:35 [AndyS]

s/preferred/override/ ??

15:08:43 [DanC]

maybe use "SparqlQuery endpoint"

15:09:10 [DanC]

ACTION KendallC: reword "the protocol must be preferred by a SPARQL query service", perhaps w.r.t. the WSDL interface

15:09:30 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:09:30 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:09:33 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:09:33 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "issue serviceDescriptions" taken up [from DanC]

15:09:54 [kendall]

(Another advantage to having one protocol interface and one operation is not having to get into conformance issues. At least, IMO.)

15:09:59 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:09:59 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:10:24 [kendall]

I share the guilt, too.

15:11:04 [Yoshio]

me, too

15:12:24 [Yoshio]

I'm sorry, but I missed what you said, Kendall(?)

15:12:31 [DanC]

PROPOSED: whereas the serviceDescription designs aren't maturing in the timescale of the current schedule, and implementation experience is somewhat thin, to postpone serviceDescriptions

15:12:40 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:12:40 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:12:50 [Yoshio]

I agree

15:12:58 [AndyS]

+1

15:13:03 [kendall]

Yoshio: I basically said that we may be ahead of the state of the implemented art for a standardization effort.

15:13:08 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:13:08 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:13:13 [DanC]

so RESOLVED.

15:13:37 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:13:37 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "publishing results format, protocol" taken up [from DanC]

15:13:43 [JanneS]

ACTION EricP: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/ 1.25

15:13:43 [JanneS]

+ editorial notes from DaveB

15:13:55 [kendall]

a complete design doc is "new info", so people have that option :>

15:14:26 [DanC]

decision to publish protocol confirmed

15:14:39 [kendall]

latest is 1.43

15:14:52 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/ 1.25 and 1.29 diffs?

15:15:17 [JanneS]

2005-04-26. Added editorial issues for 2.3.3 and 4

15:15:17 [JanneS]

2005-04-25. Switched namespace prefixes to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rf1/result2

15:15:17 [JanneS]

Added bindings element with sub-elements bnode, uri and literal.

15:15:17 [JanneS]

Added optional xsi:type for datatyped literals

15:15:17 [JanneS]

Updated XSLT and XQuery scripts to match new XML syntax.

15:15:18 [JanneS]

Point to SPARQL Query WD of 19 April 2005.

15:15:20 [JanneS]

2.3.3 Ordering Results New section describing how to record ordered results.

15:15:36 [JanneS]

that's copy paste from the two changes since February

15:16:18 [DanC]

KC: check with me before publishing, pls

15:16:20 [DanC]

DC: roger

15:16:22 [kendall]

thx

15:16:56 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:16:56 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "SPARQL QL edits" taken up [from DanC]

15:19:04 [DanC]

"SPARQL query string"

15:20:48 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#defn_SPARQLquery

15:21:07 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:21:07 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:24:44 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:24:44 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:24:46 [kendall]

that's cute, andy

15:25:43 [DanC]

ACTION: PatH to internal review of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ esp http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#defn_SPARQLquery , given XSLT magic from AndyS

15:25:58 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:25:58 [Zakim]

agendum 9. "issue: sort" taken up [from DanC]

15:27:40 [DanC]

PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.328 and

15:27:40 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/sort/query-sort-1.rq

15:27:40 [DanC]

address the sort issue

15:28:54 [JanneS]

I am hoping to send you implementation experience about this before May 24th

15:29:36 [AndyS]

+1

15:29:41 [JanneS]

+1

15:30:23 [DanC]

abstaining: KC, PatH, JosD

15:30:35 [DanC]

so RESOLVED.

15:31:26 [DanC]

ACTION AndyS: get tests/data/sort/query-sort-1.rq marked approved

15:32:20 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:32:20 [Zakim]

agendum 10. "issue: valueTesting" taken up [from DanC]

15:32:41 [JanneS]

ACTION: DanC to send comment on non-use of

15:32:42 [JanneS]

<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-datatypes> to schema comments list

15:32:55 [JanneS]

ACTION: EricP to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe

15:32:55 [JanneS]

progress:

15:32:57 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:32:57 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:33:07 [JanneS]

ACTION: DaveB to work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal

15:33:44 [JanneS]

Comment from Oracle in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0239.html

15:33:47 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005May/0025.html

15:34:06 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: noodle on uri() and str() issue from email

15:34:16 [DanC]

0025 Re: Comments on SPARQL (datatypes, valueTesting)

15:35:10 [DanC]

the survey data andy gave is in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005May/0027.html

15:35:30 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:35:30 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark (muted), Yoshio, HiroyukiS, Jay, JanneS, JosD, PatH

15:35:38 [AndyS]

Plus SQL std defines DECIMAL (PostgreSQL supports, MySQL appears not to)

15:35:41 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:35:41 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:36:25 [Yoshio]

no

15:36:26 [AndyS]

Test "1.3" - 1.3 is exact as a xsd:decimal and approx as a xsd:double.

15:36:57 [Zakim]

-JanneS

15:37:06 [JanneS]

uh, line went dead - let me continue here.

15:37:41 [DanC]

janne, is 12.5 a float or a decimal?

15:37:43 [JanneS]

I don't have preference whether it'll be decimal or double.

15:38:36 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

15:38:42 [JanneS]

Zakim, IPCaller is JanneS

15:38:42 [Zakim]

+JanneS; got it

15:38:55 [patH]

http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/#standards

15:39:27 [Yoshio]

sorry, but let me withdraw my "no", but make it "not understanding the question and the background well"

15:41:02 [DanC]

agenda?

15:42:08 [Yoshio]

q to ask "any feedback from attendents in the tutorial?"

15:42:10 [DanC]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0154.html timbl re str() on URIs, useMentionOp

15:43:33 [kendall]

I think it's worth some time, too

15:44:21 [JanneS]

the example is a good one, matching leading h character would match http uris.

15:45:06 [DanC]

{ <http://www.w3.org/">http://www.w3.org/> log:uri "http://www.w3.org/" }

15:46:14 [JanneS]

this scribe would need to run for tonight

15:46:52 [kendall]

bye all

15:46:58 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

15:47:16 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:47:20 [JanneS]

Action: Dan to rethink the use/mention issue w.r.t Tim's email

15:47:45 [JanneS]

bye - cu next week

15:47:47 [JanneS]

JanneS has left #dawg

15:47:54 [Zakim]

-JanneS

15:48:32 [DanC]

(my notes on KIF http://www.w3.org/2000/07/hs78/KIF.html ... http://meta2.stanford.edu/kif/Hypertext/kif-manual.html has gone 404 )

15:49:20 [patH]

http://logic.stanford.edu/kif/metaknowledge.html

15:49:47 [DanC]

"The term (name t) denotes the standard name for the object denoted by the term t."

15:50:18 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

15:50:21 [Zakim]

-Jay

15:51:14 [DanC]

(= (name PresidentClinton) 'PresidentClinton)

15:53:31 [Zakim]

-AndyS

15:56:03 [DanC]

SELECT ?P where { _:something ?P _:somethingElse FILTER str(?P) =~ "http://evilbadguys.org" }.

15:56:59 [DanC]

results like: ?P binds to <http://evilbadguys.org/vocab#term1>

15:57:58 [DanC]

SELECT ?P where { _:something ?P _:somethingElse FILTER uri(?P) =~ "http://evilbadguys.org" }.

16:02:07 [patH]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0154.html

16:02:18 [Zakim]

-HiroyukiS

16:03:02 [DanC]

where he writes FILTER regex(str(?n), "^h", our design allows: FILTER regex(str(?n), "^h" and not(isuri(?n))

16:12:11 [Zakim]

-DanC

16:12:12 [Zakim]

-JosD

16:12:13 [Zakim]

-PatH

16:12:14 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

16:12:15 [Zakim]

Attendees were AndyS, DanC, Kendall_Clark, Yoshio, [IPcaller], JanneS, HiroyukiS, JosD, PatH, Jay

16:13:49 [DanC]

jos, about serviceDescription and accessing collections... Agfa has picked up the N3 idioms and run with them, somewhat ahead of the rest of the WG... I think it would be cool to have a member submission showing how to use inference to do collection access, and defining some vocabulary for saying "my sparql service does that"

16:14:31 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

17:38:44 [JosD]

Hi, Dan just see you message and I would think we can work out something; am writing message to Stan and Helen to get some help (btw, for test case that makes quite some use of lists namely given http://eulersharp.sourceforge.net/2004/04test/anatomy-facts.n3 and http://eulersharp.sourceforge.net/2004/04test/anatomy-rules.n3 find http://eulersharp.sourceforge.net/2004/04test/anatomy-filter.n3...

17:38:46 [JosD]

...we made unexpected progress in backward chaining step reduction; it almost came by "accident" in that we tried things like in ALL but found improvement to be combined with mechanism euler paths..)

17:40:21 [DanC]

hmm

17:40:31 [DanC]

RRSAgent, stop