15 Apr 2005


See also: IRC log


doyle, shadi, helle, justin, carol, Shawn, alan, Chuck, Pasquale, Harvey, Sylvie
Wayne_Dick, Roberto_Castaldo, Libby_Cohen, Andrew_Arch
Chuck, carol




<shawn> hi, chuck. scribe schedule is not up to date. sorry. my fault. need a good minute taker today. are you up for it by chance?

<shadi> scribe: Chuck

<pasquale> hi all, good morning

<shawn> good morning pasquale

<carol> /invite rrsagent #eo

<carol> /invite zakim #eo

<shawn> scribe: carol

<shadi> scribe: carol

<shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005AprJun/0014.html

<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005AprJun/0014.html

Outreach Updates

Helle: Workshop on standardization and EU project. Judy was there and maybe can discuss next week.

IA Changes WAI Site Design

SH: Changes from testing - problems getting someone to help with CSS. Michael Lenz offered changes to design - but will wait until later to implement.


SH: Just content for this page
... Changes to the Page Contents - previously was Support Materials, then Accessibility Resources - problems in u-testing. Based on last f2f and work on evaluating accessibility - change to Managing Accessibility. Move up a level Evaluating Accessibility

<Justin> like it

Like: Harvey, Pasquale

<alan> Looks good to me

<Helle> I like it

<Chuck> Good

SH: Move About WAI to the first Level as well

WAI site help pages updates

Help with WAI Site: http://www.w3.org/WAI/about/site.html

SH: If come to site and want help is this the right page?

<Chuck> Yes, I think the page content is good, overall. And I pressed off instead of mute on my phone.

<pasquale> wai web site navigation

Pasquale: Change image from background to Header

SH: Would people be confused by header?

Helle: Yes I think so

Carol: Banner

JT: Top image

CL: picture at top of page

<Justin> sounds good

Pasquale and Helle like

Helle: Related pages - come to page on how to change text size and colors - why not label "text size and color"

SH: Change H2 to say text size and color

Sylvie: part on JAWS to navigate heading to heading - nav is different from version to version.

SH: how to balance between versions, languages, etc.

DS: say what version you got info from

SD: refer them to help to check.

HBJ: List all technologies?

SH: Disclaimer on other page - add here. Do want to give some specifics - balance between - if similar could be something generic

DS: new mac OS has built in screen reader

HBJ: What about countries where they use other screen readers? Germany?

SH: Will not put instructions for all screen readers

HBJ: but US now

SH: Instructions for most common without looking like only US?

Sylvie: Perhaps not so detailed, remain general. Always new users of JAWS who do not know how to do. Many don't implement header system. Helpful for those who don't know how screenreaders work.
... refer to screenreader help for more information

SH: More generic and not list specific screenreaders
... Test if 1 takes you to Heading in Home Page Reader

<Justin> yes...because it has a 30 day trial

SH: Anyone know if developers use?
... Pros of including HPR instructions?

Sylvie: Use both that and a real screen reader

<Helle> helle not Sylvie

CL: HPR 3.02 only moves using arrow keys not number keys

Helle: with 3.04 jump from heading to heading

SH: Graphical browsers do this?



SH: Add other assistive technologies
... Not sure of benefit of adding that (Zoom Text). Clarification benefit vs. complication

<alan> The canadian guidelines prohibit them I think

<alan> The canadian guidelines prohibit them I think

SH: Info provided will only have level 1

CL: Access keys more trouble than they are worth

<alan> Canadian common look and feel guidelines

Cl: don't remember seeing explicitly

<alan> I agree we should avoid them

How to Change Text Size and Colors: http://www.w3.org/WAI/about/usingsite.html

<alan> We could sniff for the browser and lead the user to the appropriate example

<alan> OK

SH: Just Mac and Windows - most common.

CL: Add Netscape

<alan> [Just learnt how to see the page with no style in firefox :-)]


SH: Add Netscape, Firefox

<alan> Could we start the page with a pharase like "It's very easy to change the text size and colours in your browser"

<alan> this page tells you how...

<alan> It's not clear that this is an example for site designers as well as a help for users

<alan> The intention ought to be clear, but maybe it isn't.

<alan> I missed that part.

<alan> It's for two audiences. Later we could add a note for page designers saying they could copy the idea.

Alan: thouht it was to be educational - they could put page in site and encourage people to learn how to change text size and color

SH: Other's could include this in their site.

AC: Encourage people and inform them.

Regret: Sailesh Panchang

HBJ: In beginning say to increase text size - should just say change text size

DS: like having a number of examples - gives sense they can find this.

<alan> [Alan has to leave call]

SH: Decrease they could figure out and doesn't seem as important.

CL: Might not make leap to understand you can do other

Sh: I agree - point is to try to tell people they can do this but realize that we're not able to solve all problems.
... Put as Change, then increase or decrease in description, then say examples are increase

Agree; Helle, CL, Carol

HBJ: Get bit of horizontal scrolling - difficult to read page.

SH: could take out of table - but easier in table.

HB: Screen capture described in the page - menu item is that description

HBJ: Change ALT text to know which image is which?

SH: If can't see image would you want to see.

CS: If putting ALT might as well put extra word

CL: If looking with images turned off - decide to turn on based on ALT text.

SH: Add complexity?

HBJ: maybe none

CS: put browser title or blank ALT

SD: May want to enable to see what looks like in firefox or explorer - helpful to have different alt text.

SH: Can tell if looking at because of table.

SD: Don't always read in table mode - because linerizing well don't always tell which it is.

Bunch of "Ayes" to change.

SH: Make changes and send to EO list - won't go through in detail again. If comments send to list but not on agenda.

Evaluation tool list updates

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/existingtools.html

Shadi: No differentiation between types of tools. Features are listed for each.
... How does it look - spacing visually - other ideas?
... Search functionality - two options. Sorting in combo box or Additional Search Options - lists all features in database.

HB: Very useful organization - impressed

Shadi: tried to stay with tools page - may be tweaks necessary

CL: At F2F in Boston saw original work - discussion where to go. Looks great!
... checklist great way to refine searching.

Pasquale: Excellent work - very useful. It's impressive - numbers of items you find to put in database to search.

Lists could get extremly long


HBJ: type in search to find specific item - like Google

Shadi: Will look into this - but difficult.

HBJ: Checklist we end up with will be very big.

Shadi: Advanced users go through all
... Each collapsible list so you can go through?

HBJ: Yes

Sh: Can have a later list. Search - may be 2nd revision - not hold up first release for.
... Move support, etc. - easier way to skim categories.

Shadi: Opinions on moving Support, etc. to H2 - Helle ok

SH: Implemented somewhere else and not fully successful. We should discuss later as low on time.

SH/HBJ: Each Category is explained in Selecting Tools Document

SH: How do we link to these explainations
... H2 to get to it?
... Selecting Web Access Tools describes each of the sections below

Sorting option - clear enough? H2 as well?

JT: Took a few mintues before figured out what to do with page.
... Towards bottom of page- smaller resolution would get lost.
... Delay between figuring out what to do.

SHadi: Maybe make H2 and change title

CS: if could move up for frequent users would be idea.


Helle: have to scroll

SH: Shorten introduction would probably be able to be done

Helle: Sort list instead of "Customize"

JT: Sort according to Tool Name didn't click with me.

HBJ: Just see list of tools - start with A prompt?

Shadi: only pops up if select - could click link to take to entire list as it was

If come to list with no prior sorting - paragraph not listed. All listed on page.

Helle: Then I could choose by vendor name?

Shadi: Yes - that's why the reset. When switch between pages it remembers previous options. Don't have to recheck or re-narrow search.

Helle Looks fine

JT: Refresh page when choose drop down?

<Chuck> Have to leave... cheers!

JT: Would be afraid of not realizing that something has happened.
... Would expect a Search metaphor with info at top - not for it to resort on same page.

Shadi: Designed so you can bookmark page and come back to previous sort.

SH: What if list area visually different - stuff at top - generic background stuff. Make bottom look more active.

CS: Move content so that first result is up higher.

Shadi: additions to side bar?

SH: Look at Lexicon in coming week - will get more guidance.

Summary of Action Items

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Found Scribe: Chuck
Found Scribe: carol
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Scribes: Chuck, carol
Default Present: Doyle_Saylor, +1.312.737.aaaa, Helle_Bjarno, Justin, Shadi, Shawn, Carol, Chuck_Letourneau, Alan, Bingham, Pasquale, Sylvie_Duchateau
Present: doyle shadi helle justin carol Shawn alan Chuck Pasquale Harvey Sylvie

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Andrew, Libby, Wayne, Roberto)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
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Regrets: Wayne_Dick Roberto_Castaldo Libby_Cohen Andrew_Arch
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JanMar/0194.html
Got date from IRC log name: 15 Apr 2005
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/04/15-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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