12:24:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #eo
12:24:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/15-eo-irc
12:24:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #eo
12:24:18 <shadi> zakim, this will be eo
12:24:18 <Zakim> ok, shadi; I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
12:24:21 <shawn> hi, chuck. scribe schedule is not up to date. sorry. my fault. need a good minute taker today. are you up for it by chance?
12:24:25 <shadi> meeting: EOWG
12:24:32 <shadi> chair: Shawn
12:24:38 <shadi> scribe: Chuck
12:24:41 <pasquale> pasquale has joined #eo
12:24:51 <pasquale> hi all, good morning
12:25:40 <shawn> good morning pasquale
12:25:46 <shadi> regrets: Andrew, Libby, Wayne, Roberto
12:26:15 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has now started
12:26:20 <Justin> Justin has joined #eo
12:26:22 <Zakim> +Doyle_Saylor
12:27:54 <Zakim> + +1.312.737.aaaa
12:28:43 <Zakim> +??P2
12:29:02 <Zakim> +Helle_Bjarno
12:29:21 <Justin> zakim, ??P2 is Justin
12:29:21 <Zakim> +Justin; got it
12:29:23 <Zakim> +Shadi
12:29:23 <carol> carol has joined #eo
12:29:26 <shawn> zakim, code?
12:29:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 3694 (tel:+1.617.761.6200), shawn
12:29:55 <Zakim> +Shawn
12:30:20 <shawn> zakim, who is here?
12:30:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, +1.312.737.aaaa, Justin, Helle_Bjarno, Shadi, Shawn
12:30:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see carol, Justin, pasquale, Zakim, RRSAgent, shawn, Chuck, shadi
12:30:46 <Helle> Helle has joined #eo
12:30:48 <shadi> zakim, aaaa is really Carol
12:30:48 <Zakim> +Carol; got it
12:31:36 <Zakim> +Chuck_Letourneau
12:31:50 <carol>  /invite rrsagent #eo 
12:32:05 <carol>  /invite zakim #eo
12:32:16 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JanMar/0194.html
12:32:17 <shawn> scribe: carol
12:32:23 <shadi> scribe: carol
12:32:24 <carol>  zakim, this will be eowg
12:32:24 <Zakim> ok, carol, I see WAI_EOWG()8:30AM already started
12:33:04 <Zakim> +Alan
12:33:20 <Zakim> +??P6
12:33:44 <Zakim> +Bingham
12:33:50 <shadi> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005AprJun/0014.html
12:34:07 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:34:07 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:34:31 <alan> alan has joined #eo
12:34:39 <shadi> zakim, who is here?
12:34:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doyle_Saylor, Carol, Justin (muted), Helle_Bjarno, Shadi, Shawn, Chuck_Letourneau, Alan, ??P6, Bingham
12:34:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see alan, Helle, carol, Justin, pasquale, Zakim, RRSAgent, shawn, Chuck, shadi
12:34:54 <shadi> zakim, ?? is really Pasquale
12:34:54 <Zakim> +Pasquale; got it
12:34:57 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
12:34:58 <alan> zakim, mute me
12:34:58 <Zakim> Alan should now be muted
12:34:58 <shawn> zakim, mute alan
12:34:59 <Zakim> Alan was already muted, shawn
12:35:19 <carol> Regrets: Wayne Dick, Roberto Castaldo, Libby Cohen, Andrew Arch
12:36:05 <carol> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005AprJun/0014.html
12:36:14 <carol> Outreach Updates
12:36:44 <carol> Helle: Workshop on standardization and EU project.  Judy was there and maybe can discuss next week.
12:38:28 <carol> Topic: IA Changes WAI Site Design
12:39:37 <carol> SH: Changes from testing - problems getting someone to help with CSS.  Michael Lenz offered changes to design - but will wait until later to implement.
12:39:56 <carol> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ut3/status
12:40:41 <carol> SH: Just content for this page
12:41:17 <Helle> zakim, mute me
12:41:17 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
12:42:38 <carol> SH: Changes to the Page Contents - previously was Support Materials, then Accessibility Resources - problems in u-testing.  Based on last f2f and work on evaluating accessibility - change to Managing Accessibility.  Move up a level Evaluating Accessibility
12:43:03 <Justin> like it
12:43:15 <carol> Like: Harvey, Pasquale
12:43:29 <alan> Looks good to me
12:43:33 <Helle> I like it
12:43:39 <Chuck> Good
12:44:25 <carol> SH: Move About WAI to the first Level as well
12:44:49 <carol> Topic: WAI site help pages updates
12:44:58 <carol> Help with WAI Site: http://www.w3.org/WAI/about/site.html
12:46:53 <carol> SH: If come to site and want help is this the right page?
12:46:58 <Zakim> -Chuck_Letourneau
12:47:41 <Chuck> Yes, I think the page content is good, overall.  And I pressed off instead of mute on my phone.
12:48:27 <Helle> zakim, unmute me
12:48:27 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
12:49:02 <Zakim> +Chuck_Letourneau
12:49:05 <carol> carol has joined #eo
12:49:14 <pasquale> wai web site navigation
12:49:53 <carol> Pasquale: Change image from background to Header
12:50:40 <Zakim> +Sylvie_Duchateau
12:50:56 <carol> SH: Would people be confused by header?
12:51:01 <carol> Helle: Yes I think so
12:51:18 <Justin> zakim, please unmute me
12:51:18 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
12:51:22 <carol> Carol: Banner
12:51:31 <carol> JT: Top image
12:51:45 <carol> CL: picture at top of page
12:51:51 <Justin> zakim, please mute me
12:51:51 <Zakim> Justin should now be muted
12:52:48 <Justin> sounds good
12:53:06 <carol> Pasquale and Helle like
12:53:50 <carol> Helle: Related pages - come to page on how to change text size and colors - why not label "text size and color"
12:54:45 <carol> SH: Change H2 to say text size and color
12:56:33 <carol> Sylvie: part on JAWS to navigate heading to heading - nav is different from version to version.
12:57:41 <carol> SH: how to balance between versions, languages, etc.
12:58:18 <carol> DS: say what version you got info from
12:58:47 <carol> SD: refer them to help to check.
12:58:58 <carol> HBJ: List all technologies?
12:59:56 <carol> SH: Disclaimer on other page - add here.  Do want to give some specifics - balance between - if similar could be something generic
13:00:12 <carol> DS: new mac OS has built in screen reader
13:00:40 <carol> HBJ: What about countries where they use other screen readers?  Germany?
13:01:05 <carol> SH: Will not put instructions for all screen readers
13:01:17 <carol> HBJ: but US now
13:01:37 <carol> SH: Instructions for most common without looking like only US?
13:02:53 <carol> Sylvie: Perhaps not so detailed, remain general.  Always new users of JAWS who do not know how to do.  Many don't implement header system.  Helpful for those who don't know how screenreaders work.
13:03:21 <carol> Sylvie: refer to screenreader help for more information
13:04:14 <carol> SH: More generic and not list specific screenreaders
13:05:59 <carol> SH: Test if 1 takes you to Heading in Home Page Reader
13:06:15 <Justin> yes...because it has a 30 day trial
13:06:22 <carol> SH: Anyone know if developers use? 
13:06:52 <carol> SH: Pros of including HPR instructions?
13:07:12 <carol> Sylvie: Use both that and a real screen reader
13:08:06 <Helle> helle not Sylvie
13:08:54 <carol> CL: HPR 3.02 only moves using arrow keys not number keys
13:09:22 <carol> Helle: with 3.04 jump from heading to heading 
13:09:58 <carol> SH: Graphical browsers do this?
13:10:02 <carol> sorry!
13:10:13 <carol> :-)
13:11:33 <carol> SH: Add other assistive technologies
13:12:47 <carol> SH: Not sure of benefit of adding that (Zoom Text).  Clarification benefit vs. complication
13:14:59 <Helle> zakim, mute me
13:14:59 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:15:27 <alan> The canadian guidelines prohibit them I think
13:15:37 <alan> The canadian guidelines prohibit them I think
13:15:56 <carol> SH: Info provided will only have level 1
13:16:30 <carol> CL: Access keys more trouble than they are worth
13:16:58 <alan> Canadian common look and feel guidelines
13:17:15 <carol> Cl: don't remember seeing explicitly
13:17:42 <alan> I agree we should avoid them
13:18:47 <carol> Topic: How to Change Text Size and Colors: http://www.w3.org/WAI/about/usingsite.html
13:20:25 <alan> We could sniff for the browser and lead the user to the appropriate example
13:20:28 <Helle> zakim, unmute me
13:20:28 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:21:12 <alan> OK
13:21:38 <carol> SH: Just Mac and Windows - most common.
13:22:01 <carol> CL: Add Netscape
13:22:18 <alan> [Just learnt how to see the page with no style in firefox :-)]
13:22:21 <carol> (HB)
13:23:29 <carol> SH: Add Netscape, Firefox
13:23:52 <alan> Could we start the page with a pharase like "It's very easy to change the text size and colours in your browser"
13:24:01 <alan> this page tells you how...
13:26:16 <alan> It's not clear that this is an example for site designers as well as a help for users
13:28:33 <alan> The intention ought to be clear, but maybe it isn't.
13:29:17 <Harvey> Harvey has joined #eo
13:29:46 <alan> I missed that part.
13:30:01 <alan> It's for two audiences. Later we could add a note for page designers saying they could copy the idea.
13:30:31 <alan> zakim, unmute me
13:30:31 <Zakim> Alan should no longer be muted
13:31:51 <carol> Alan: thouht it was to be educational - they could put page in site and encourage people to learn how to change text size and color
13:32:05 <carol> SH: Other's could include this in their site.
13:32:20 <carol> AC: Encourage people and inform them.
13:32:22 <alan> zakim, mute me
13:32:22 <Zakim> Alan should now be muted
13:33:05 <carol> Regret: Sailesh Panchang
13:33:35 <carol> HBJ: In beginning say to increase text size - should just say change text size
13:34:24 <carol> DS: like having a number of examples - gives sense they can find this.
13:35:51 <alan> [Alan has to leave call]
13:36:00 <carol> SH: Decrease they could figure out and doesn't seem as important.
13:37:13 <Zakim> -Alan
13:37:22 <carol> CL: Might not make leap to understand you can do other
13:37:59 <carol> Sh: I agree - point is to try to tell people they can do this but realize that we're not able to solve all problems.
13:38:58 <carol> SH: Put as Change, then increase or decrease in description, then say examples are increase
13:39:05 <carol> Agree; Helle, CL, Carol
13:41:52 <carol> HBJ: Get bit of horizontal scrolling - difficult to read page.
13:42:48 <carol> SH: could take out of table - but easier in table.
13:44:13 <carol> HB: Screen capture described in the page - menu item is that description
13:44:58 <carol> HBJ: Change ALT text to know which image is which?
13:45:14 <carol> SH: If can't see image would you want to see.
13:45:51 <carol> CS: If putting ALT might as well put extra word
13:46:05 <carol> CL: If looking with images turned off - decide to turn on based on ALT text.
13:46:51 <carol> SH: Add complexity?
13:47:33 <carol> HBJ: maybe none
13:48:14 <carol> CS: put browser title or blank ALT
13:49:10 <carol> SD: May want to enable to see what looks like in firefox or explorer - helpful to have different alt text.
13:49:20 <carol> SH: Can tell if looking at because of table.
13:49:57 <carol> SD: Don't always read in table mode - because linerizing well don't always tell which it is.
13:50:40 <carol> Bunch of "Ayes" to change.
13:50:44 <Helle> zakim, mute me
13:50:44 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should now be muted
13:51:59 <carol> SH: Make changes and send to EO list - won't go through in detail again.  If comments send to list but not on agenda.
13:52:29 <carol> Topic: Evaluation tool list updates
13:52:51 <shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/tools/existingtools.html
13:54:17 <carol> Shadi: No differentiation between types of tools.  Features are listed for each.  
13:54:36 <carol> Shadi: How does it look - spacing visually - other ideas?
13:55:22 <carol> Shadi: Search functionality - two options.  Sorting in combo box or Additional Search Options - lists all features in database.
13:56:27 <carol> HB: Very useful organization - impressed
13:56:42 <carol> Shadi: tried to stay with tools page - may be tweaks necessary
13:56:45 <Helle> zakim, unmute me
13:56:45 <Zakim> Helle_Bjarno should no longer be muted
13:56:53 <Justin> zakim, unmute me
13:56:54 <Zakim> Justin should no longer be muted
13:58:07 <carol> CL: At F2F in Boston saw original work - discussion where to go.  Looks great!
13:58:46 <carol> CL: checklist great way to refine searching.
13:59:18 <carol> Pasquale: Excellent work - very useful.  It's impressive - numbers of items you find to put in database to search.
14:00:51 <carol> Lists could get extremly long
14:00:55 <carol> (Helle)
14:01:51 <carol> HBJ: type in search to find specific item - like Google
14:02:11 <carol> Shadi: Will look into this - but difficult.
14:02:30 <carol> HBJ: Checklist we end up with will be very big.
14:03:18 <shawn> q+ for idea for advanced search page
14:03:51 <carol> Shadi: Advanced users go through all
14:04:13 <carol> Shadi: Each collapsible list so you can go through?
14:04:16 <carol> HBJ: Yes
14:04:41 <carol> Sh: Can have a later list.  Search - may be 2nd revision - not hold up first release for.
14:05:33 <carol> SH: Move support, etc. - easier way to skim categories.
14:07:00 <carol> Shadi: Opinions on moving Support, etc. to H2 - Helle ok
14:07:46 <carol> SH: Implemented somewhere else and not fully successful.  We should discuss later as low on time.
14:09:41 <carol> SH/HBJ: Each Category is explained in Selecting Tools Document
14:10:21 <carol> SH: How do we link to these explainations
14:11:38 <carol> SH: H2 to get to it?
14:11:45 <carol> Present: doyle, shadi, helle, justin, carol, Shawn, alan, Chuck, Pasquale, Harvey, Sylvie
14:12:07 <carol> SH: Selecting Web Access Tools describes each of the sections below
14:12:42 <carol> Sorting option - clear enough?  H2 as well?
14:12:53 <carol> JT: Took a few mintues before figured out what to do with page.
14:13:14 <carol> JT: Towards bottom of page- smaller resolution would get lost.
14:13:32 <carol> JT: Delay between figuring out what to do.
14:14:17 <carol> SHadi: Maybe make H2 and change title
14:14:56 <carol> CS: if could move up for frequent users would be idea.
14:15:00 <carol> ideal
14:15:13 <carol> Helle: have to scroll
14:15:39 <carol> SH: Shorten introduction would probably be able to be done
14:16:02 <carol> Helle: Sort list instead of "Customize"
14:17:05 <carol> JT: Sort according to Tool Name didn't click with me.
14:19:00 <carol> HBJ: Just see list of tools - start with A prompt?
14:19:38 <carol> Shadi: only pops up if select - could click link to take to entire list as it was
14:20:06 <carol> If come to list with no prior sorting - paragraph not listed.  All listed on page.
14:20:28 <carol> Helle: Then I could choose by vendor name?
14:21:32 <carol> Shadi: Yes - that's why the reset.  When switch between pages it remembers previous options.  Don't have to recheck or re-narrow search.
14:22:52 <carol> Helle Looks fine
14:23:21 <carol> JT: Refresh page when choose drop down?
14:24:03 <Chuck> Have to leave... cheers!
14:24:06 <carol> JT: Would be afraid of not realizing that something has happened.
14:24:18 <Zakim> -Chuck_Letourneau
14:25:09 <carol> JT: Would expect a Search metaphor with info at top - not for it to resort on same page.
14:25:39 <carol> Shadi: Designed so you can bookmark page and come back to previous sort.
14:26:29 <carol> SH: What if list area visually different - stuff at top - generic background stuff.  Make bottom look more active.
14:27:17 <carol> CS: Move content so that first result is up higher.
14:30:33 <carol> Shadi: additions to side bar?
14:31:47 <carol> SH: Look at Lexicon in coming week - will get more guidance.
14:32:10 <Zakim> -Sylvie_Duchateau
14:32:32 <Zakim> -Bingham
14:32:34 <Zakim> -Carol
14:32:36 <Zakim> -Doyle_Saylor
14:32:37 <Zakim> -Justin
14:32:38 <Zakim> -Shawn
14:32:39 <Zakim> -Shadi
14:32:42 <Zakim> -Pasquale
14:32:43 <Zakim> -Helle_Bjarno
14:32:44 <Zakim> WAI_EOWG()8:30AM has ended
14:32:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Doyle_Saylor, +1.312.737.aaaa, Helle_Bjarno, Justin, Shadi, Shawn, Carol, Chuck_Letourneau, Alan, Bingham, Pasquale, Sylvie_Duchateau
14:33:03 <shawn> zakim, bye
14:33:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #eo
14:33:12 <shawn> rrsagent, make logs world
14:33:19 <shawn> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:33:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/15-eo-minutes.html shawn
14:34:24 <shawn> shawn has left #eo
14:36:30 <Justin> Justin has left #eo
14:49:00 <shadi> rrsagent, bye
14:49:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items