RDF Data Access Weekly Teleconference

5 Apr 2005

See also: IRC log, proposed agenda


Yoshio, DanC, Kevin, HowardK, PatH, DaveB, Kendall_Clark, JosD, SteveH

Jeen Broekstra (sender of comments such as more on optionals) participated as an observer.

AndyS, EricP, BryanT


Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

<kendall> minutes approved from last week's meeting

next meeting 12 Apr, DaveB to scribe, risks noted

continued without (much) discussion:

<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to work out remaining details in sparqlx.{rnc,xsd,rng}: expression syntax, order-by stuff continues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action08]

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] KendallC to incorporate EricP's privacy text, salting to taste [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action15]

issue: valueTesting

<scribe> [DONE] ACTION EricP: to propose to close valueTesting (bonus points for test cases, to EricP or others)

-> 11th hour datatype testing proposal

<kendall> some discussion of some of ericp valuetesting tests...

<DaveB> looking at SPARQL-DT-1-alg.sh

<kendall> HowardK been following along a bit on Eric's design

<kendall> (discussion of eric's sparql-dt-0)

<kendall> XQuery makes 42 int and 42 float True (I think? It promotes the int to float, apparently)

<SteveH> I think this test says that xsd:int(42.0) = 42 is true

<kendall> discussion of 11.1.1 of rq23

<DaveB> it's refering to http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#mapping

<Zakim> Yoshio, you wanted to ask if a != b is True if no assertion on a being equal to b or not is provided

<Yoshio> re: Eric's design, a != b should be True

<Yoshio> following fron link on "!" leads to XQuery fn:not, which would say so

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to give the "datatype swamp" speech again

<kendall> danc tries to recruit someone to co-present Eric's design w/ Eric

<kendall> ah, Tuscany...

<scribe> ACTION: DaveB to work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal ETA 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action01]

<DaveB> EricP's proposal seems not to refer to http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#promotion Type Promotion of numeric types, which seems relevant. and has a typo or two re the 2nd test. [this is for my information]

<scribe> ACTION: HowardK to seek clarification on valueTesting w.r.t. differenced from XQuery [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action02]

issue: sort

<scribe> ACTION: PatH to review sort design [PENDING] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action10]

not started...

<kendall> iirc, Kowari's itQL has sort

<kendall> Jeen says something about comparing blank nodes and literals (?)

Jeen: SerQL doesn't does offset/limit but not SORT, yet; due to requests, we're starting to have a stab at it

<kendall> er, iTQL, I should say.

<kendall> Versa also has sort.

<kendall> how few is "widespread", I wonder

Jos: ORDER BY doesn't make sense with CONSTRUCT

<DaveB> [['Using ORDER BY on a solution sequence for a result form other than SELECT has no direct effect because only SELECT returns a sequence of results, not an RDF graph]]

<kendall> order by only applies to SELECt -- we think!

"Using ORDER BY on a solution sequence for a result form other than SELECT has no direct effect because only SELECT returns a sequence of results, not an RDF graph. However, in combination with LIMIT and OFFSET, it can be used to return partial results."

<kendall> So, another proposal discussed where the prime designer or proponent isn't here. :>

<kendall> tricky

<SteveH> Yoshio, there isn;t a way to do that currently as far as I know

<bijanp> (Not quite OT, but related, may be helpful, i'm unsure how reliable or good, but: http://www.cs.umd.edu/Library/TRs/CS-TR-4611/CS-TR-4611.ps )

<Yoshio> Hmm, we do need for that function to show users, for example, the total number of documents hit

OPTIONS: 2 questions: 1 prefer to adopt this sort design (or something close) vs prefer to postpone. 2: probably object to postpone / object to this design or something close

pref this sort design: 1 1 1

pref to postpone: 1 1 1 1

oppose postpone: 1

oppose sort: 1

<kendall> KevinW says that some of the complexity in the sort design is linked to complexity in other issues

<Yoshio> in sorting we have an arbitrary ordering for the last resort, though

<kendall> UMD cares more about limit with "next 10" than we do about sort

<kendall> fwiw

<DaveB> ref http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/#u2.19

<kendall> fine-grained parsing of use cases that weren't intended to read that way

(limit/offset seems like a protocol thing)

<kendall> (er, that's off the record, I should have said!)

<kendall> (limit & offset were originally in teh protocol, but i removed them at andy's urging, as I recall)

PatH: limit/offset could be done with protocol tokens

<bijan> limit is in the language now, see 10.1

yes, bijan... we're discussing whether that's the design we prefer

<Zakim> Yoshio, you wanted to ask if there is a way (or need for tha way) to get just the number of the solutions and to say a project next to me deals with patent search, where user

<bijan> Ah, ok.

<howardk> for those interested, new version of XQuery WD is available at http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/

<Yoshio> to ask if "03"^^xsd:integer < "1"^^xsd:integer (lexical form rule 4.1)

<DaveB> I think, yes it says that in the rq23

<Yoshio> Hmm, horrible, confusing at least

<DaveB> actually I can't tell since those rules may/only apply if operator:< can't be used


<kendall> There is reification syntax in rq23

<kendall> SteveH: the value of the current syntax is that it's "like" Turtle; so adding new stuff reduces that value

<DaveB> I'd agree with steve, jos

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to propose to close punctuationSyntax (again) sans <<reifiction shorthand>> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action03]

SPARQL QL publication candidate

<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] EricP to notify the WG of editors draft (or change of plans) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action13]

poll: PROPOSED: to publish SPARQL QL editor's draft 1.290 as a W3C WD, with editorial and technical TODOs highlighted, with status ala "the WG is preparing for last call; while we do our internal review, the community is welcome to comment too."

<kendall> Yoshio, KevinW, HowardK, PatH, Kendall, DaveB, SteveH -- support pub'ing now

<DaveB> I found 2.4, 2.6 confusing in parts. 5.4, 9 defns baffled me. 2.7 & lots need section nos.

<kendall> Jeen does too

<kendall> JosD does by implication :>

<kendall> no one seems opposed to publishing it, more relevantly

<DaveB> (in typo land; 3.1 uri syntax wrong; 4.1 empty; 6.2 dc namespace urls wrong)

After discussion of if/how to say "we're getting close to last call", DanC is inclined to do another round internally first.

<scribe> ACTION: PatH to internal review of rq23, starting monday [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action04]

<DaveB> reviewing just defns? or all?

KendallC offers to copy-edit, noting it will use all his WG time

<scribe> ACTION: DaveB to review rq23 editor's draft this week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action05]

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] AndyS to clarify 5.4 w/r/t closed world assumption [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action11]

<scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] DaveB to consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action12]

<scribe> ACTION: [DROPPED] DanC to review editors draft (delivered 31 Mar) by 5 Mar [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action14]

issue wsdlAbstractProtocol

-> protocol update

KC: I split the WSDL into sparql-protocol-query.wsdl and sparql-protocol-graph.wsdl

DC is interested in feedback from BT, AFS. KC is confident he can get it.

<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to own wsdlAbstractProtocol (based on WSDL description added to protocol to editor's draft). continues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action07]

SPARQL Variable Results format

<kendall> Has a new name...

DB: I changed the title, since it's more than variable results...

<kendall> what's the new name?

<scribe> ACTION: DaveB to consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer continues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action06]

Test Suite Maintenance

<scribe> ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve continues [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action09]

<scribe> ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) [PENDING] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action19]

<scribe> ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs [PENDING] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action20]

<scribe> ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) [PENDING] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action21]

<scribe> ACTION: AndyS to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe [PENDING] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action22]

<scribe> ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [PENDING] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action23]

<scribe> ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page [PENDING] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html#action26]


KendallC and DanC for the DAWG $Date: 2005/04/07 13:24:42 $
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.122