14:29:41 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:29:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc 14:29:59 +HowardK 14:30:01 +PatH 14:30:13 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:30:13 On the phone I see +31.33.465.aaaa, Yoshio, DanC, Kevin, HowardK, PatH 14:30:47 Zakim, aaa is JeenB 14:30:47 sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa' 14:31:18 +??P40 14:31:28 kendall has joined #dawg 14:31:30 Zakim, ??P40 is DaveB 14:31:30 +DaveB; got it 14:31:45 +Kendall_Clark 14:32:22 Zakim, take up agendum 1 14:32:22 agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0004.html" taken up [from DanC] 14:32:45 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:32:45 On the phone I see +31.33.465.aaaa, Yoshio, DanC, Kevin, HowardK, PatH, DaveB, Kendall_Clark 14:32:51 bijan has joined #dawg 14:32:53 Zakim, aaaa is JeenB 14:32:53 +JeenB; got it 14:33:11 zakim, who's on the phone 14:33:11 I don't understand 'who's on the phone', kendall 14:33:30 me s/angenaam/aangenaam/ 14:33:49 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html 29 Mar minutes 14:33:59 minutes approved from last week's meeting 14:34:33 (do we have today's regrets yet?) 14:34:58 regrets: AndyS, EricP, ??? 14:34:59 Bryan Thompson, AndyS, 14:35:13 JosD has joined #dawg 14:35:26 Also attending today: JosD 14:35:49 +JosD 14:35:51 next meeting 12 Apr, DaveB to scribe, risks noted 14:36:42 Zakim, call EricP-8190 14:36:42 ok, DanC; the call is being made 14:36:44 +EricP 14:36:53 btw, my scribing can't go past 12 noon my time (i.e., 84 more minutes :>) 14:37:00 agenda + punctuationSyntax 14:37:15 (going to see Cisco demonstrate some RDF in its new IOS!) 14:37:35 Zakim, next agendum 14:37:35 agendum 2. "issue: valueTesting" taken up [from DanC] 14:37:49 -EricP 14:37:50 bijanp has joined #dawg 14:37:58 +Gabrielle_Bartolini 14:38:20 Zakim, Gabrielle_Bartolini is SteveH 14:38:20 +SteveH; got it 14:38:21 Zakim, Gabrielle_Bartolini is temporarily SteveH 14:38:22 sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'Gabrielle_Bartolini' 14:38:34 SteveH and EricP also attending today 14:38:53 err, s/EricP// 14:38:57 -- whatever ;> 14:39:12 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0015.html 11th hour datatype testing proposal 14:40:36 zakim, mute me 14:40:36 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 14:40:53 some discussion of some of ericp valuetesting tests... 14:41:31 looking at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/perl/modules/W3C/Rdf/test/SPARQL-DT-1-alg.sh?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup 14:42:08 HowardK been following along a bit on Eric's design 14:43:03 q+ to ask if a != b is True if no assertion on a being equal to b or not is provided 14:43:23 (discussion of eric's sparql-dt-0) 14:44:28 zakim, unmute me 14:44:28 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 14:44:55 XQuery makes 42 int and 42 float True (I think? It promotes the int to float, apparently) 14:45:34 I think this test says that xsd:int(42.0) = 42 is true 14:46:01 discussion of 11.1.1 of rq23 14:46:20 it's refering to http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#mapping 14:46:24 ack yoshio 14:46:24 Yoshio, you wanted to ask if a != b is True if no assertion on a being equal to b or not is provided 14:46:58 re: Eric's design, a != b should be True 14:48:02 zakim, mute me 14:48:02 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 14:48:58 following fron link on "!" leads to XQuery fn:not, which would say so 14:49:25 ack danc 14:49:25 DanC, you wanted to give the "datatype swamp" speech again 14:50:19 "engagement is bad, as is thinking" -- :> 14:51:43 danc tries to recruit someone to co-present Eric's design w/ Eric 14:52:09 zakim, unmute me 14:52:09 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 14:52:54 ah, Tuscany... 14:53:24 ACTION DaveB: work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal 14:53:30 ... ETA 2 weeks 14:54:14 EricP's proposal seems not to refer to http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/#promotion Type Promotion of numeric types, which seems relevant. and has a typo or two re the 2nd test. [this is for my information] 14:54:19 ACTION HowardK: seek clarification on valueTesting w.r.t. differenced from XQuery 14:55:58 Zakim, next agendum 14:55:58 agendum 3. "issue: sort" taken up [from DanC] 14:57:01 . ACTION: PatH to review sort design in 2 weeks 14:57:05 not started... 14:58:56 iirc, Kowari's itQL has sort 14:59:27 Jeen says something about comparing blank nodes and literals (?) 15:00:10 Jeen: SerQL doesn't does offset/limit but not SORT, yet; due to requests, we're starting to have a stab at it 15:00:17 er, iTQL, I should say. 15:00:55 Versa also has sort. 15:01:08 how few is "widespread", I wonder 15:02:27 Jos: ORDER BY doesn't make sense with CONSTRUCT 15:02:35 Yoshio_ has joined #dawg 15:03:22 [['Using ORDER BY on a solution sequence for a result form other than SELECT has no direct effect because only SELECT returns a sequence of results, not an RDF graph]] 15:03:27 order by only applies to SELECt -- we think! 15:03:32 "Using ORDER BY on a solution sequence for a result form other than SELECT has no direct effect because only SELECT returns a sequence of results, not an RDF graph. However, in combination with LIMIT and OFFSET, it can be used to return partial results." 15:04:40 So, another proposal discussed where the prime designer or proponent isn't here. :> 15:04:46 tricky 15:05:42 q+ to ask if there is a way (or need for tha way) to get just the number of the solutions 15:06:09 Yoshio, there isn;t a way to do that currently as far as I know 15:06:14 OPTIONS: 2 questions: 1 prefer to adopt this sort design (or something close) vs prefer to postpone. 2: probably object to postpone / object to this design or something close 15:07:06 (Not quite OT, but related, may be helpful, i'm unsure how reliable or good, but: http://www.cs.umd.edu/Library/TRs/CS-TR-4611/CS-TR-4611.ps ) 15:07:06 pref this sort design: 1 1 15:07:11 Hmm, we do need for that function to show users, for example, the total number of documents hit 15:07:23 pref to postpone: 1 1 1 1 15:07:38 oppose postpone: 0 15:07:38 Yoshio is for pref 15:07:43 oppose postpone: 1 15:08:02 oppose sort: 1 15:08:28 pref this sort design: 1 1 1 15:08:31 3 for prefers this design 15:09:30 zakim, mute me 15:09:30 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:10:12 zakim, unmute me 15:10:12 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:10:29 KevinW says that some of the complexity in the sort design is linked to complexity in other issues 15:11:01 in sorting we have an arbitrary ordering for the last resort, though 15:12:57 UMD cares more about limit with "next 10" than we do about sort 15:13:01 fwiw 15:14:13 ref http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/#u2.19 15:14:36 fine-grained parsing of use cases that weren't intended to read that way 15:14:39 (limit/offset seems like a protocol thing) 15:14:45 (er, that's off the record, I should have said!) 15:15:25 (limit & offset were originally in teh protocol, but i removed them at andy's urging, as I recall) 15:15:51 q+ to say a project next to me deals with patent search, where user should be informed of the number of the match before getting the real records 15:16:51 PatH: limit/offset could be done with protocol tokens 15:16:53 limit is in the language now, see 10.1 15:17:26 yes, bijan... we're discussing whether that's the design we prefer 15:17:29 ack yoshio 15:17:30 Yoshio, you wanted to ask if there is a way (or need for tha way) to get just the number of the solutions and to say a project next to me deals with patent search, where user 15:17:35 ... should be informed of the number of the match before getting the real records 15:17:37 Ah, ok. 15:19:36 for those interested, new version of XQuery WD is available at http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/ 15:20:55 to ask if "03"^^xsd:integer < "1"^^xsd:integer (lexical form rule 4.1) 15:21:36 I think, yes it says that in the rq23 15:22:57 Hmm, horrible, confusing at least 15:23:09 Zakim, next agendum 15:23:09 agendum 4. "SPARQL QL publication candidate" taken up [from DanC] 15:23:17 actually I can't tell since those rules may/only apply if operator:< can't be used 15:23:23 zakim, mute me 15:23:23 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:23:25 Zakim, agenda? 15:23:25 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 15:23:26 4. SPARQL QL publication candidate [from DanC] 15:23:28 5. SPARQL Variable Results format [from DanC] 15:23:30 6. issue wsdlAbstractProtocol [from DanC] 15:23:31 7. issue xmlAbstractSyntax [from DanC] 15:23:32 8. Protocol edits [from DanC] 15:23:33 9. Test Suite Maintenance [from DanC] 15:23:34 10. punctuationSyntax [from DanC] 15:23:44 Zakim, take up agendum 10 15:23:44 agendum 10. "punctuationSyntax" taken up [from DanC] 15:23:54 yes 15:24:02 yes 15:24:03 There is reification syntax in rq23 15:24:22 zakim, unmute me 15:24:22 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:24:36 q- 15:25:03 SteveH: the value of the current syntax is that it's "like" Turtle; so adding new stuff reduces that value 15:25:13 I'd agree with steve, jos 15:26:37 <> 15:26:58 ACTION DanC: propose to close punctuationSyntax (again) sans <> 15:27:13 Zakim, close agendum 10 15:27:13 agendum 10 closed 15:27:14 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:27:16 4. SPARQL QL publication candidate [from DanC] 15:27:41 Yo: yes 15:27:59 Zakim, who's talking? 15:28:09 DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: JosD (32%), DanC (60%), SteveH (15%) 15:28:21 zakim, mute me 15:28:21 SteveH should now be muted 15:28:27 zakim, mute me 15:28:27 Kendall_Clark should now be muted 15:29:07 PROPOSED: to publish 15:29:07 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.290 15:29:07 as a W3C WD, with editorial and technical TODOs highlighted, 15:29:07 with status ala "the WG is preparing for last call; while 15:29:07 we do our internal review, the community is welcome to 15:29:08 comment too." 15:29:12 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:29:12 On the phone I see JeenB, Yoshio, DanC, Kevin, HowardK, PatH, DaveB, Kendall_Clark (muted), JosD, SteveH (muted) 15:29:27 zakim, unmute me 15:29:27 Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted 15:30:34 zakim, unmute me 15:30:34 SteveH should no longer be muted 15:30:56 Yoshio, KevinW, HowardK, PatH, Kendall, DaveB, SteveH -- support pub'ing now 15:30:59 zakim, mute me 15:30:59 SteveH should now be muted 15:31:01 I found 2.4, 2.6 confusing in parts. 5.4, 9 defns baffled me. 2.7 & lots need section nos. 15:31:03 Jeen does too 15:31:08 JosD does by implication :> 15:31:30 no one seems opposed to publishing it, more relevantly 15:31:49 (in typo land; 3.1 uri syntax wrong; 4.1 empty; 6.2 dc namespace urls wrong) 15:37:31 ACTION PatH: internal review of rq23, starting monday 15:37:31 reviewing just defns? or all? 15:37:48 KendallC offers to copy-edit, noting it will use all his WG time 15:39:23 ACTION DaveB: to review rq23 editor's draft this week 15:39:41 Zakim, next agendum 15:39:41 agendum 4. "SPARQL QL publication candidate" taken up [from DanC] 15:39:52 scribe has only about 10 minutes left 15:39:59 Zakim, close agendum 4 15:39:59 agendum 4 closed 15:40:00 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:40:01 5. SPARQL Variable Results format [from DanC] 15:40:07 Zakim, agenda? 15:40:07 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 15:40:09 5. SPARQL Variable Results format [from DanC] 15:40:11 6. issue wsdlAbstractProtocol [from DanC] 15:40:12 7. issue xmlAbstractSyntax [from DanC] 15:40:13 8. Protocol edits [from DanC] 15:40:14 9. Test Suite Maintenance [from DanC] 15:40:22 (i hate to leave telcons early, but the Cisco RDF stuff is v. attractive) 15:40:24 Zakim, take up agendum 6 15:40:24 agendum 6. "issue wsdlAbstractProtocol" taken up [from DanC] 15:41:08 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0018.html protocol update 15:41:44 KC: I split the WSDL into sparql-protocol-query.wsdl and sparql-protocol-graph.wsdl 15:44:30 DC is interested in feedback from BT, AFS 15:44:36 Zakim, close this agendum 15:44:36 agendum 6 closed 15:44:37 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:44:38 5. SPARQL Variable Results format [from DanC] 15:46:31 Zakim, take up item 5 15:46:31 agendum 5. "SPARQL Variable Results format" taken up [from DanC] 15:47:16 Has a new name... 15:47:18 DB: I changed the title, since it's more than variable results... 15:47:20 what's the new name? 15:47:37 ACTION: DaveB to consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer continues 15:48:04 ACTION: KendallC to own wsdlAbstractProtocol (based on WSDL description added to protocol to editor's draft). continues 15:48:18 ACTION: KendallC to work out remaining details in sparqlx.{rnc,xsd,rng}: expression syntax, order-by stuff continues 15:48:32 zakim, unmute me 15:48:32 SteveH should no longer be muted 15:48:39 Zakim, take up agenum 9 15:48:40 I don't understand 'take up agenum 9', DanC 15:49:31 ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve continues 15:49:35 Zakim, take up agendum 9 15:49:35 agendum 9. "Test Suite Maintenance" taken up [from DanC] 15:52:50 -Kendall_Clark 15:55:26 zakim, mute me 15:55:26 SteveH should now be muted 15:55:38 pat, 15:55:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-dev/ 15:55:44 ADJOURN. 15:55:48 -DanC 15:55:50 bye 15:55:52 -DaveB 15:55:53 bye 15:55:53 -JosD 15:55:54 bye 15:55:55 -PatH 15:55:55 -Kevin 15:55:57 -Yoshio 15:55:58 -SteveH 15:55:58 -JeenB 15:56:06 -HowardK 15:56:08 SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended 15:56:10 Attendees were +31.33.465.aaaa, Yoshio, DanC, Kevin, HowardK, PatH, DaveB, Kendall_Clark, JeenB, JosD, EricP, SteveH 15:59:09 DaveB has joined #dawg 16:22:24 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:22:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html DanC 16:22:30 jeen has left #dawg 16:23:19 bijan has joined #dawg 16:25:24 Meeting: RDF Data Access Weekly Teleconference 16:25:45 Chair: DanC 16:25:46 bijan has left #dawg 16:27:33 ACTION: PatH to review sort design [PENDING] 16:28:06 [DONE] ACTION EricP: to propose to close valueTesting (bonus points for test cases, to EricP or others) 16:28:25 [PENDING] ACTION: AndyS to clarify 5.4 w/r/t closed world assumption 16:28:37 darn... forgot to ask dave about this... 16:28:41 [PENDING] ACTION: DaveB to consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle 16:29:00 [DONE] ACTION: EricP to notify the WG of editors draft (or change of plans) 16:29:11 [DROPPED] ACTION: DanC to review editors draft (delivered 31 Mar) by 5 Mar 16:29:33 [PENDING] ACTION: KendallC to incorporate EricP's privacy text, salting to taste 16:29:52 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:29:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html DanC 16:31:29 action -6 16:31:43 [PENDING] ACTION DaveB: to consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer continues 16:31:54 action -9 16:32:06 [PENDING] ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve continues 16:32:23 action -7 16:32:41 [PENDING] ACTION: KendallC to own wsdlAbstractProtocol (based on WSDL description added to protocol to editor's draft) 16:32:52 action -8 16:33:01 [PENDING] ACTION: KendallC to work out remaining details in sparqlx.{rnc,xsd,rng}: expression syntax, order-by stuff 16:34:29 ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) [PENDING] 16:34:40 ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs [PENDING] 16:35:00 ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) [PENDING] 16:35:09 ACTION: AndyS to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe [PENDING] 16:35:17 ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [PENDING] 16:35:25 ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [PENDING[ 16:35:31 ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [PENDING] 16:35:33 action -16 16:35:41 ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page [PENDING] 16:35:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html DanC 16:36:59 [DONE] ACTION EricP: to propose to close valueTesting 16:37:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html DanC 16:39:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-minutes.html DanC 16:39:56 RRSAgent, bye 16:39:56 I see 13 open action items: 16:39:56 ACTION: DaveB to work with EricP to clarify valueTesting proposal [1] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T14-53-24 16:39:56 ACTION: HowardK to seek clarification on valueTesting w.r.t. differenced from XQuery [2] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T14-54-19 16:39:56 ACTION: DanC to propose to close punctuationSyntax (again) sans <> [3] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T15-26-58 16:39:56 ACTION: PatH to internal review of rq23, starting monday [4] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T15-37-31 16:39:56 ACTION: DaveB to to review rq23 editor's draft this week [5] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T15-39-23 16:39:56 ACTION: PatH to review sort design [PENDING] [10] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-27-33 16:39:56 ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) [PENDING] [11] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-34-29 16:39:56 ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs [PENDING] [12] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-34-40 16:39:56 ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) [PENDING] [13] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-35-00 16:39:56 ACTION: AndyS to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe [PENDING] [14] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-35-09 16:39:56 ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [PENDING] [15] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-35-17 16:39:56 ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [PENDING] [17] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-35-31 16:39:56 ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page [PENDING] [18] 16:39:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-dawg-irc#T16-35-41