See also: IRC log
<DanC> janne, you're set to scribe, right?
about to accept minutes from last week
<DanC> ammend 0358.html to show regrets DaveB
<DanC> and RESOLVED to approve as ammended
<AndyS> Steve - 7333
<swh_> AndyS, its the phone number I need
<AndyS> <DaveB> it's tel:+1.617.761.6200 code:7333
checking if agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0372.html is ok
<DaveB> regrets from me for any 29th March meeting (vacation)
(how can I see if the irc is being logged by the robot?)
Hey, I'll do again next week.
<DanC> ok, thanks.
beer that is
<swh_> ok :)
<kendall> send me yr mailing address :>
<DanC> next meeting 2005-03-29T14:30Z
<kendall> new objectives are useful at this point even if we don't do them; there's likely to be another charter, eventually. they seem good input to that.
<DaveB> ref to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#d4.11
<kendall> (i'd like that for the record, janne. ;>)
<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#queryExecutionOrder $Revision: 1.1 $ sort same as 1.264
AndyS: issue in comparing things which are by nature not comparable
<Yoshio> what's the question, again, please?
<DanC> "Is this design maturing rapidly? persue it or pull the plug and
EricP: normally would pull the plug, willing to go via Andy's judgement
Kevin: pursue a little longer
Howard: counts on Andys work (did I get it right?)
<howardk> that's good janne
Hiroyuki: to pursue
Yoshio: didn't get you!
<DanC> Yoshi: prefer to persue
<Yoshio> to purseue
<ericP> yoshio: persue
<kendall> Kendall: pursue
I'm ok to pursue
<kendall> connolly: pull the plug
DanC: would like to pull the plug
Steve: goes with the editor's choice
Jos: prefers postponing
<SteveH> with a mild preference to postpone
<AndyS> And DaveB?
<DaveB> postpone for me
EricP: would like to do the sorting right: collation order should be defineable via lexical space + language tag + datatype
<DaveB> where are collations?
<DanC> collations are "how to sort" rules
EricP: .. in order to make implementations consistent.
<DaveB> xquery doesn't order/compareTo on rdf types
AndyS: notes difference between "03" and "3" in with xsd:integer datatype which are different in lexical space.
DanC asking for volunteers to review sort design
<thompsonbry> If we don't deal with this, we each implementation will deal with it and there will be no interoperability.
DanC: ...hoping for quick review
<ericP> i'm in favor of doing this completely or not at all
<ericP> i.e. no SORT keyword.
<SteveH> ericP, I'm in favour of roing it right, which maybe != completly
<SteveH> ericP, requireing a cast() means it can be right
discussion about the level of SORT implementations in rdf query languages
<Yoshio> re:voluntteer, what should be reviewed?
<howardk> yoshio: andy's sort design
Yoshio, the proposed SORT design in the document at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#solutionsResults
<DaveB> from what I see http://www.openrdf.org/doc/users/ch06.html serql 1.1 has no sort, order
<DanC> ACTION: PatH to review sort design in 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action01]
<DanC> ACTION: Kevin to review sort design at earliest convenience [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action02]
<kendall> the RDF query language survey says none of the languages surveyed have order by except Versa. And that RQL has specific operators for retrieval of container elements.
<kendall> Reference: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~jbroeks/papers/survey.pdf
<JosD> for partial order consider topological sort
<DaveB> I think: ?dtstart^^xsd:dateTime is wrong
<DanC> I was expecting the inferred triple (whose predicate is op:dateTime-greater-than ) to be in the input data
<DanC> ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action03]
Test in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0360.html testing input data, not query language (as it now is)
<DaveB> I've looked a the tutrtle defn, and '.' isn't in qname
about to accept the test case
<DanC> ACTION: DaveB to consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action04]
<AndyS> The current grammar special cases to ensure my trailing dots in qnames as per F2F - it has to go through hoops to do that
<thompsonbry> I feel strongly that we need to publish test cases.
<scribe> ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page (continued) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action05]
<scribe> ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs (continued) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action06]
<scribe> ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve (continued) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action07]
<scribe> ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (continued - don't expect quick delivery) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action08]
<kendall> I might have to drop out, but it's a long shot that I would.
<thompsonbry> Dan, did we just take a decision to not publish the test cases?
<thompsonbry> I would like to see a plan to publish the test cases make it onto the agenda soon.
DanC: we should soon start getting more comments from the public
<kendall> only thing i'd like to do to it as editor is spell check and run tidy to make sure it's valid. FWIW.
discussion about test case document - publishing as working draft/who's editor
<kendall> hi fred
<SteveH> I volunteer to make testcases a note, if theres desire for it
<DanC> ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action09]
discussion about publishing reqs document
effectively discussion 2.18 as the motivator for WSDL
<DanC> hmm... "Working with enterprise web services tools"?
<DaveB> that's better
<kendall> that works for me
<bijan> zakim unmute me
the wording now leads into thinking the wsdl interface is mostly for inserting and not querying
<kendall> ACTION: kendall to To rewrite 2.18: change the title, don't motivate "update", spell "WSDL" correctly. :> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action10]
<patH> Aandres Segovia collection vol 7
<patH> I don't hear it, Bijan.
<DanC> PROPOSED: to publish usecases 1.148 + revision to 2.18 by KC, reviewed by AFS, plus editorial fixups by KC, ok'd by EricP
<DanC> so RESOLVED. ACTION KC, AFS, EP
<DanC> EricP will let us know if it's not gonna happen this week
<DanC> DanC: serviceDescription, sort, update formally postpone...
discussion about new issues/requirements, going round the table
<DanC> (new or on-the-edge)
xml serialization for sparql has been suggested
<bijan> recursive queries over construct?!
<kendall> i thought kevin meant in one round trip, one query
<kendall> iTQL & kowari do this
<AndyS> c.f. SQL FROM (SELECT ... FROM ... WHERE) and SQL IN and SQL NOT IN (row and column forms)
<DaveB> ask/boolean results queries could be inside an expression - but let's not do that now!
<DanC> (xml serialization itself is later on our agenda...)
<AndyS> FYI: *Some* subquery forms can be done in SPARQL by simple juxaposition
<ericP> is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0416 relevent ?
<kendall> i liked what you wrote, eric, fwiw. it's not a use case, but it's pretty reasonable start.
Yoshio has interest to have privacy related use case
<ericP> sounds like a call for an abuse case
<thompsonbry> +1 on kendall's position. better right than fast.
Kendall: would rather be late than wrong
JanneS ok to include some of the latest arrivals but will oppose some things in this group's charter (xml encoding for sparql)
<DaveB> (timecheck? 90mins)
<DanC> phpht. used 90min already
Steve reluctant to include new stuff at this time
Jos agrees with both Kendall and DanC while explicitly relucant to xml syntax
<DanC> (bijan, ericp did an XSLT thingy to collect the defns. I found it useful)
<AndyS> Eric has an XSLT script to put the defns together
<DanC> (a soap binding... hmm...)
<DaveB> DanC: I still haven't commented
DaveB: the current set of new features looks like 1 more year of work
<DaveB> disjunction, sorting, cascading queries, update, xmls erializatin, wsdl -<- all not imp to me, in this tiemscale
<kendall> eric: cool, that will help a lot
AndyS: in same lines with DaveB i.e. a lot of work to do with the new features and the eventual problems they reveal
<DanC> full house today... that's encouraging. I was getting the impression energy was waning.
<DanC> hmm... I wonder if there's anything constructive to do about the schedule... will discussing it more help
<SteveH> if constructive = removing features then go for it ;)
<SteveH> DanC, did I see a vote from you for not renaming the N3/turtle input files?
<DanC> yes, I'm for not renaming. what's done is done. but this is just advice, not to be taken too seriously
<ericP> bijan, defns from the spec --> http://www.w3.org/2000/06/webdata/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2Fsw%2FDataAccess%2Frq23%2Fdefns.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2Fsw%2FDataAccess%2Frq23%2F&auth=proxy&transform=Submit
<DanC> bob's comments on disjuction are quite likely sufficient new information to re-open that issue, which opens the possibility of dropping it
hmm, does the RRSAgent make HTML formatted raw logs any longer?
<DanC> his comments on declarativeness/ordering are perhaps sufficient to reopen nested optionals, similarly
<DanC> sure, Janne...
<DanC> or do you mean this?
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.117 of Date: 2005/03/10 16:25:39 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/toplogical/topological/ Succeeded: s/casting/cascading queries/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: JanneS Inferring Scribes: JanneS Default Present: EricP, DaveB, AndyS, Kevin, HowardK, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS, PatH, HiroyukiS, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia Present: EricP DaveB AndyS Kevin HowardK Yoshio Kendall_Clark JanneS PatH HiroyukiS DanC SteveH JosD BryanT Bijan_Parsia WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Got date from IRC log name: 22 Mar 2005 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html People with action items: andys danc daveb ericp kendall kevin path steveh WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]