Convene, take roll, review records and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0372.html

<DanC> janne, you're set to scribe, right?

all set

about to accept minutes from last week

<DanC> ammend 0358.html to show regrets DaveB

<DanC> and RESOLVED to approve as ammended

<AndyS> Steve - 7333

<swh_> AndyS, its the phone number I need

<AndyS> <DaveB> it's tel:+1.617.761.6200 code:7333

checking if agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0372.html is ok

<DaveB> regrets from me for any 29th March meeting (vacation)

(how can I see if the irc is being logged by the robot?)

Hey, I'll do again next week.

yes

<DanC> ok, thanks.

beer that is

<swh_> ok :)

<kendall> send me yr mailing address :>

:)

<DanC> next meeting 2005-03-29T14:30Z

issue: sort

<kendall> new objectives are useful at this point even if we don't do them; there's likely to be another charter, eventually. they seem good input to that.

<DaveB> ref to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases#d4.11

<kendall> (i'd like that for the record, janne. ;>)

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#queryExecutionOrder $Revision: 1.1 $ sort same as 1.264

section 10.1

<DaveB> in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#solutionsResults

AndyS: issue in comparing things which are by nature not comparable

<Yoshio> what's the question, again, please?

<DanC> "Is this design maturing rapidly? persue it or pull the plug and

<DanC> postpone?"

EricP: normally would pull the plug, willing to go via Andy's judgement

Kevin: pursue a little longer

Howard: counts on Andys work (did I get it right?)

<howardk> that's good janne

Hiroyuki: to pursue

Yoshio: didn't get you!

<DanC> Yoshi: prefer to persue

<Yoshio> to purseue

<ericP> yoshio: persue

ok

<kendall> Kendall: pursue

I'm ok to pursue

<thompsonbry> Persue.

Pat: abstain

<kendall> connolly: pull the plug

DanC: would like to pull the plug

Steve: goes with the editor's choice

Jos: prefers postponing

<SteveH> with a mild preference to postpone

Bryan: Pursue

Bijan: abstain

<AndyS> And DaveB?

<DaveB> postpone for me

EricP: would like to do the sorting right: collation order should be defineable via lexical space + language tag + datatype

<DaveB> where are collations?

<DanC> collations are "how to sort" rules

EricP: .. in order to make implementations consistent.

<JosD> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-xpath-functions-20041029/#collations

<DaveB> xquery doesn't order/compareTo on rdf types

AndyS: notes difference between "03" and "3" in with xsd:integer datatype which are different in lexical space.

DanC asking for volunteers to review sort design

<thompsonbry> If we don't deal with this, we each implementation will deal with it and there will be no interoperability.

DanC: ...hoping for quick review

<ericP> i'm in favor of doing this completely or not at all

<ericP> i.e. no SORT keyword.

<SteveH> ericP, I'm in favour of roing it right, which maybe != completly

<SteveH> ericP, requireing a cast() means it can be right

discussion about the level of SORT implementations in rdf query languages

<Yoshio> re:voluntteer, what should be reviewed?

<howardk> yoshio: andy's sort design

Yoshio, the proposed SORT design in the document at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#solutionsResults

<Yoshio> thanks

<DaveB> from what I see http://www.openrdf.org/doc/users/ch06.html serql 1.1 has no sort, order

<DanC> ACTION: PatH to review sort design in 2 weeks [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action01]

<DanC> ACTION: Kevin to review sort design at earliest convenience [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action02]

<kendall> the RDF query language survey says none of the languages surveyed have order by except Versa. And that RQL has specific operators for retrieval of container elements.

<kendall> Reference: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~jbroeks/papers/survey.pdf

optional test for with background inference

<JosD> for partial order consider topological sort

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0361.html

<DaveB> I think: ?dtstart^^xsd:dateTime is wrong

<DanC> I was expecting the inferred triple (whose predicate is op:dateTime-greater-than ) to be in the input data

<DanC> ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action03]

Test suite maintenance

Test in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0360.html testing input data, not query language (as it now is)

<SteveH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-004

<DaveB> I've looked a the tutrtle defn, and '.' isn't in qname

about to accept the test case

<DanC> ACTION: DaveB to consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action04]

<AndyS> The current grammar special cases to ensure my trailing dots in qnames as per F2F - it has to go through hoops to do that

<thompsonbry> I feel strongly that we need to publish test cases.

<scribe> ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page (continued) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action05]

<scribe> ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs (continued) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action06]

<scribe> ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve (continued) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action07]

<scribe> ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (continued - don't expect quick delivery) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action08]

<kendall> I might have to drop out, but it's a long shot that I would.

<thompsonbry> Dan, did we just take a decision to not publish the test cases?

requirements review before last call

<thompsonbry> I would like to see a plan to publish the test cases make it onto the agenda soon.

DanC: we should soon start getting more comments from the public

<kendall> only thing i'd like to do to it as editor is spell check and run tidy to make sure it's valid. FWIW.

discussion about test case document - publishing as working draft/who's editor

<kendall> hi fred

<SteveH> I volunteer to make testcases a note, if theres desire for it

<DanC> ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action09]

discussion about publishing reqs document

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases

effectively discussion 2.18 as the motivator for WSDL

<DanC> hmm... "Working with enterprise web services tools"?

<DaveB> that's better

<bijan> +1

<kendall> that works for me

<bijan> zakim unmute me

the wording now leads into thinking the wsdl interface is mostly for inserting and not querying

<kendall> ACTION: kendall to To rewrite 2.18: change the title, don't motivate "update", spell "WSDL" correctly. :> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html#action10]

<patH> Aandres Segovia collection vol 7

<patH> I don't hear it, Bijan.

<DanC> PROPOSED: to publish usecases 1.148 + revision to 2.18 by KC, reviewed by AFS, plus editorial fixups by KC, ok'd by EricP

+1

<DanC> so RESOLVED. ACTION KC, AFS, EP

<DanC> EricP will let us know if it's not gonna happen this week

<DanC> DanC: serviceDescription, sort, update formally postpone...

discussion about new issues/requirements, going round the table

<DanC> (new or on-the-edge)

xml serialization for sparql has been suggested

<bijan> recursive queries over construct?!

<kendall> i thought kevin meant in one round trip, one query

<kendall> iTQL & kowari do this

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#cascadedQueries

<AndyS> c.f. SQL FROM (SELECT ... FROM ... WHERE) and SQL IN and SQL NOT IN (row and column forms)

<DaveB> ask/boolean results queries could be inside an expression - but let's not do that now!

<DanC> (xml serialization itself is later on our agenda...)

<AndyS> FYI: *Some* subquery forms can be done in SPARQL by simple juxaposition

<ericP> is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0416 relevent ?

<kendall> i liked what you wrote, eric, fwiw. it's not a use case, but it's pretty reasonable start.

Yoshio has interest to have privacy related use case

<ericP> sounds like a call for an abuse case

<thompsonbry> +1 on kendall's position. better right than fast.

Kendall: would rather be late than wrong

JanneS ok to include some of the latest arrivals but will oppose some things in this group's charter (xml encoding for sparql)

<DaveB> (timecheck? 90mins)

<DanC> phpht. used 90min already

Steve reluctant to include new stuff at this time

Jos agrees with both Kendall and DanC while explicitly relucant to xml syntax

<DanC> (bijan, ericp did an XSLT thingy to collect the defns. I found it useful)

<AndyS> Eric has an XSLT script to put the defns together

<DanC> (a soap binding... hmm...)

<AndyS> DaveB?

<DaveB> DanC: I still haven't commented

DaveB: the current set of new features looks like 1 more year of work

<DaveB> disjunction, sorting, cascading queries, update, xmls erializatin, wsdl -<- all not imp to me, in this tiemscale

<kendall> eric: cool, that will help a lot

AndyS: in same lines with DaveB i.e. a lot of work to do with the new features and the eventual problems they reveal

<kendall> sure

<kendall> 2nd

<DanC> ADJOURN.

<howardk> bye

<DanC> full house today... that's encouraging. I was getting the impression energy was waning.

<DanC> hmm... I wonder if there's anything constructive to do about the schedule... will discussing it more help

<DanC> ?

<SteveH> if constructive = removing features then go for it ;)

<SteveH> DanC, did I see a vote from you for not renaming the N3/turtle input files?

<DanC> yes, I'm for not renaming. what's done is done. but this is just advice, not to be taken too seriously

<ericP> bijan, defns from the spec --> http://www.w3.org/2000/06/webdata/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2Fsw%2FDataAccess%2Frq23%2Fdefns.xsl&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2001%2Fsw%2FDataAccess%2Frq23%2F&auth=proxy&transform=Submit

<DanC> bob's comments on disjuction are quite likely sufficient new information to re-open that issue, which opens the possibility of dropping it

hmm, does the RRSAgent make HTML formatted raw logs any longer?

<DanC> his comments on declarativeness/ordering are perhaps sufficient to reopen nested optionals, similarly

<DanC> sure, Janne...

<DanC> or do you mean this?

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.117  of Date: 2005/03/10 16:25:39  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/toplogical/topological/
Succeeded: s/casting/cascading queries/
No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: JanneS
Inferring Scribes: JanneS
Default Present: EricP, DaveB, AndyS, Kevin, HowardK, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, JanneS, PatH, HiroyukiS, DanC, SteveH, JosD, BryanT, Bijan_Parsia
Present: EricP DaveB AndyS Kevin HowardK Yoshio Kendall_Clark JanneS PatH HiroyukiS DanC SteveH JosD BryanT Bijan_Parsia

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<dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting


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<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Got date from IRC log name: 22 Mar 2005
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2005/03/22-dawg-minutes.html
People with action items: andys danc daveb ericp kendall kevin path steveh

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