IRC log of webont on 2002-12-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 17:01:47 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #webont
- 17:01:57 [jhendler_]
- zakim, this is SW_WebOnt
- 17:01:59 [Zakim]
- ok, jhendler_
- 17:02:01 [guus]
- zakim, ??p24 is Guus
- 17:02:02 [Zakim]
- +Guus; got it
- 17:02:12 [JosD]
- JosD has joined #webont
- 17:02:21 [Zakim]
- + +1.610.282.aaaa
- 17:03:03 [Zakim]
- +??P36
- 17:03:16 [guus]
- zakim, ??p34 is IanH
- 17:03:17 [Zakim]
- +IanH; got it
- 17:03:31 [Zakim]
- +??P37
- 17:03:39 [guus]
- zakim, ??p36 is JosDR
- 17:03:40 [Zakim]
- +JosDR; got it
- 17:03:54 [jjc]
- jjc has joined #webont
- 17:03:59 [guus]
- zakim, ??p37 is HermantH
- 17:04:00 [Zakim]
- +HermantH; got it
- 17:04:32 [Zakim]
- +Jim_Hendler
- 17:04:50 [jhendler_]
- zakim, mute Jim_Hendler
- 17:04:52 [Zakim]
- Jim_Hendler should now be muted
- 17:05:04 [jhendler_]
- hi guus
- 17:05:34 [hth]
- hth has joined #webont
- 17:05:36 [Zakim]
- +Marwan_Sabbouh
- 17:05:45 [jhendler_]
- zakim, unmute Jim_Hendler
- 17:05:47 [Zakim]
- Jim_Hendler should no longer be muted
- 17:05:54 [jjc]
- I need a couple of minutes before joining ... I'm expecting to scribe.
- 17:06:02 [Zakim]
- +??P40
- 17:06:09 [jhendler_]
- zakim, who is here
- 17:06:10 [Zakim]
- jhendler_, you need to end that query with '?'
- 17:06:17 [jhendler_]
- zakim, ??p40 is mcguinness
- 17:06:18 [Zakim]
- +Mcguinness; got it
- 17:06:23 [guus]
- zakim, ??p40 is DebM
- 17:06:24 [Zakim]
- sorry, guus, I do not recognize a party named '??p40'
- 17:06:24 [jhendler_]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:06:26 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, +1.610.282.aaaa, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness
- 17:06:27 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see hth, jjc, JosD, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler_, guus, logger
- 17:06:40 [jhendler_]
- zakim, aaaa is Jeff
- 17:06:41 [Zakim]
- +Jeff; got it
- 17:06:50 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Dean
- 17:07:28 [mdean]
- mdean has joined #webont
- 17:07:32 [Zakim]
- +PatH
- 17:07:35 [jhendler_]
- zakim, who is here
- 17:07:36 [jhendler_]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:07:36 [Zakim]
- jhendler_, you need to end that query with '?'
- 17:07:37 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, Jeff, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness, Mike_Dean, PatH
- 17:07:39 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see mdean, hth, jjc, JosD, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler_, guus, logger
- 17:07:50 [Zakim]
- +??P43
- 17:07:57 [jjc]
- Zakim, ?P43 is jjc.
- 17:07:58 [Zakim]
- sorry, jjc, I do not recognize a party named '?P43'
- 17:08:06 [jjc]
- Zakim, ??P43 is jjc.
- 17:08:07 [Zakim]
- +Jjc.; got it
- 17:08:10 [guus]
- regrets Dale, Wallace, Stanton, Stein
- 17:08:20 [jhendler_]
- regrets COnnolly
- 17:08:27 [guus]
- regrets Eshelman, Hori, Euzenat
- 17:08:36 [jhendler_]
- zakim, who is here
- 17:08:36 [Zakim]
- jhendler_, you need to end that query with '?'
- 17:08:38 [Zakim]
- +??P44
- 17:08:39 [jhendler_]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:08:41 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, Jeff, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness, Mike_Dean, PatH, Jjc., ??P44
- 17:08:41 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see mdean, hth, jjc, JosD, RRSAgent, Zakim, jhendler_, guus, logger
- 17:08:49 [DeborahMc]
- DeborahMc has joined #webont
- 17:09:03 [jhendler_]
- zakim, ??p44 is Peter
- 17:09:04 [jjc]
- Zakim, ??P44 is pfps.
- 17:09:04 [Zakim]
- +Peter; got it
- 17:09:06 [Zakim]
- sorry, jjc, I do not recognize a party named '??P44'
- 17:09:14 [guus]
- zakim, ??p44 is PeterPS
- 17:09:15 [Zakim]
- sorry, guus, I do not recognize a party named '??p44'
- 17:09:32 [jjc]
- Telecon #44
- 17:10:46 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, who is talking?
- 17:10:57 [Zakim]
- jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (46%), IanH (4%), JosDR (4%), Jim_Hendler (4%), Marwan_Sabbouh (14%), Jjc. (9%), Peter (52%)
- 17:11:17 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, who is talking?
- 17:11:28 [Ian]
- Ian has joined #webont
- 17:11:29 [Zakim]
- jjcscribe, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (75%), Marwan_Sabbouh (9%), Peter (13%)
- 17:11:39 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, who is talking?
- 17:11:50 [Zakim]
- jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (24%), Marwan_Sabbouh (30%), Jjc. (5%), Peter (19%)
- 17:12:00 [jjcscribe]
- Agenda unchanged
- 17:12:09 [jjcscribe]
- No telecon 26th dec.
- 17:12:58 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute peter.
- 17:13:00 [Zakim]
- sorry, jjcscribe, I do not see a party named 'peter.'
- 17:13:05 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute Peter.
- 17:13:07 [Zakim]
- sorry, jjcscribe, I do not see a party named 'Peter.'
- 17:13:25 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute Peter.
- 17:13:26 [Zakim]
- sorry, jjcscribe, I do not see a party named 'Peter.'
- 17:13:50 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute Peter
- 17:13:52 [Zakim]
- Peter should now be muted
- 17:14:33 [Zakim]
- +Peter_PS
- 17:14:39 [Zakim]
- -Peter
- 17:15:08 [jjcscribe]
- Manchester f2f - block booking is reserved until 6th Jan
- 17:15:24 [jjcscribe]
- But it will help if people book earlier.
- 17:16:00 [jjcscribe]
- Primary goal of f2f5 is to work on implementation report,
- 17:16:17 [jjcscribe]
- can/should we invite people to help
- 17:17:02 [jjcscribe]
- 1.6 reup
- 17:17:23 [jjcscribe]
- Jim has sent mail to everyone who has been signed back up,
- 17:17:41 [jjcscribe]
- vote is going in our favour, we are very likely to get extension.
- 17:17:46 [Zakim]
- +??P44
- 17:17:59 [jhendler_]
- (but vote not yet finished - so don't quote me on this!)
- 17:18:08 [jhendler_]
- zakim, ??p44 is jonathan
- 17:18:09 [Zakim]
- +Jonathan; got it
- 17:18:20 [jjcscribe]
- 1.7 schedule
- 17:19:00 [jjcscribe]
- Guus in favour of 4 or 5 week last call period.
- 17:19:04 [Zakim]
- +NickG
- 17:19:27 [jjcscribe]
- odds low on need for webont f2f at plenary
- 17:19:47 [jjcscribe]
- may be meeting on semweb architecture
- 17:19:55 [nmg]
- nmg has joined #webont
- 17:20:07 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 17:20:11 [nmg]
- sorry I'm late - previous meeting overran
- 17:20:18 [Zakim]
- jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (24%), Mcguinness (54%)
- 17:21:26 [jjcscribe]
- Deb: when is last date for input to MCr f2f?
- 17:21:34 [jjcscribe]
- Guus: December 24th.
- 17:22:12 [jjcscribe]
- Question: media type registration?
- 17:22:21 [jjcscribe]
- Guus: we will come back to that.
- 17:23:14 [jjcscribe]
- jjc: I need to update test cases, more test cases + conformance.
- 17:25:06 [jjcscribe]
- path: do we need more porse for making model theory acceptable to non-mathematical audience
- 17:25:45 [jjcscribe]
- rdf semantics is more discrusive but has been found difficult
- 17:26:09 [jjcscribe]
- 6 open issues left
- 17:27:53 [jjcscribe]
- actions 2.2 first three continued
- 17:28:03 [jhendler_]
- ACTION: Mike Smith to coordinate with Chris about write up of owl:imports issue (Chris' open issue)
- 17:28:20 [jjcscribe]
- thanks jim
- 17:28:25 [jjcscribe]
- (scribe asleep)
- 17:28:38 [jjcscribe]
- (scribe was asleep)
- 17:28:53 [Zakim]
- +??P48
- 17:29:14 [jhendler_]
- zakim, ??p48 is peter2
- 17:29:15 [Zakim]
- +Peter2; got it
- 17:29:22 [Zakim]
- -Peter_PS
- 17:29:25 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 17:29:35 [Zakim]
- jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (21%), Jim_Hendler (5%), Mcguinness (5%), Jonathan (29%), NickG (49%), Peter2 (40%)
- 17:29:44 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute Peter2
- 17:29:45 [Zakim]
- Peter2 should now be muted
- 17:30:30 [jjcscribe]
- Deb's action held up by Mike ..., text being transferred *now*
- 17:30:50 [jjcscribe]
- MikeDean's action held up by MikeSmith ..., text being transferred *now*
- 17:31:05 [jjcscribe]
- all actions 2.2 continued
- 17:31:34 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 17:31:45 [Zakim]
- jjcscribe, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (38%), IanH (28%), JosDR (10%), Jonathan (43%)
- 17:31:55 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute Jonathan
- 17:31:57 [Zakim]
- Jonathan should now be muted
- 17:32:25 [jhendler_]
- zakim, unmute Peter2
- 17:32:26 [Zakim]
- Peter2 should no longer be muted
- 17:32:44 [jjcscribe]
- 5.14
- 17:33:45 [jjcscribe]
- should there be a URI for the ontology in abstract as opposed to any specific version
- 17:33:54 [jjcscribe]
- still open whether normative or not
- 17:35:13 [jhendler_]
- regret, Jerome, Masahiro, Larry
- 17:37:18 [jjcscribe]
- path: question waht it would mean to be normative
- 17:37:26 [jjcscribe]
- answer: that they are in the owl namespace
- 17:37:35 [jjcscribe]
- path: still believes they should be nonnormative
- 17:38:37 [jhendler_]
- regrets Thompson, Klein
- 17:38:44 [jjcscribe]
- danc (msg dec/0002) doesn't see motivation for non-normative
- 17:39:13 [jjcscribe]
- jimh: still some dicsussion about wording for incompatibility
- 17:39:55 [jjcscribe]
- path: the informal meaning should be monotonic
- 17:40:33 [jjcscribe]
- jeff: prefers normative
- 17:41:28 [jjcscribe]
- jos supports nonnormative
- 17:41:54 [jjcscribe]
- path: argues that properties and classes without meaning should be in another namespace
- 17:43:17 [jjcscribe]
- jimh: doesn't like it being in a different namespace.
- 17:43:42 [jjcscribe]
- mikes: explaining another namespace is more difficult than explaining how this works.
- 17:44:09 [Zakim]
- -Jonathan
- 17:44:16 [jjcscribe]
- jos: semantics of versioning is unclear
- 17:44:54 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 17:45:32 [jjcscribe]
- jimh: versioning is needed.
- 17:45:51 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute jjc
- 17:45:53 [Zakim]
- Jjc. should now be muted
- 17:46:09 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, ??P0 is Jonathan
- 17:46:10 [jhendler_]
- zakim, ??p0 is jonathan
- 17:46:11 [Zakim]
- +Jonathan; got it
- 17:46:11 [Zakim]
- sorry, jhendler_, I do not recognize a party named '??p0'
- 17:46:42 [guus]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 17:46:48 [jjcscribe]
- jonathan thinks if we can't give a formal semantics then we haven't met the requriements.
- 17:46:54 [Zakim]
- guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jonathan (50%), Guus (4%), IanH (4%), JosDR (9%), Jim_Hendler (29%), Peter2 (4%)
- 17:47:02 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, unmute jjc
- 17:47:04 [Zakim]
- Jjc. should no longer be muted
- 17:47:25 [jjcscribe]
- discussion of formal semantrics versus operational semantics
- 17:48:21 [jjcscribe]
- q+
- 17:49:07 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 17:49:24 [Zakim]
- jjcscribe, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeff (86%), JosDR (4%), Peter2 (71%)
- 17:49:31 [jjcscribe]
- zakim, mute Peter2
- 17:49:33 [Zakim]
- Peter2 should now be muted
- 17:49:47 [jhendler_]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Dec/0001.html
- 17:52:16 [jjcscribe]
- jeremy spoke in favour of two namespaces - one logical, the other non-logical
- 17:53:05 [jjcscribe]
- mikes spoke in favour of operational semantics as being intelligible
- 17:53:28 [jjcscribe]
- path says that people will get confused if tehy think in the programming paradigm
- 17:54:45 [jjcscribe]
- jimh proposes that the properties are explicitly labelled as human readable
- 17:55:24 [jjcscribe]
- path we are assuming that ontoliges can be identified by urirefs.
- 17:56:21 [jjcscribe]
- path, jos, jeremy can all live with a clear presentation of this is human readable material
- 17:57:31 [jjcscribe]
- Moving onto dans proposal to add versionOf construct
- 17:58:52 [guus]
- Dan's message: http://www.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Dec/0002.html
- 17:59:34 [jjcscribe]
- Jeff and Jim versionOf will set up multiple relationships between URIrefs
- 18:00:08 [jjcscribe]
- what is the generic ontology uri represent
- 18:00:14 [jjcscribe]
- path: a resource
- 18:00:53 [guus]
- Additional regrets: Klein, Thompson
- 18:01:32 [jjcscribe]
- Is versionOf just a human readable label?
- 18:05:03 [Zakim]
- +Peter_PS
- 18:05:10 [Zakim]
- -Peter2
- 18:05:22 [Ian]
- Here is some nice text from a web design firm: http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/goldenbull.html#anadrom
- 18:05:47 [jjcscribe]
- PROPOSAL: accept Jeff's mssg dec/0001, with proviso that all properties are labelled as extralogical
- 18:06:41 [jjcscribe]
- PROPOSAL: includes minor changes from other comments
- 18:07:00 [jjcscribe]
- ABSTAIN: jjc, path, ian,
- 18:07:10 [jjcscribe]
- ABSTAIN: peter, marwan
- 18:07:18 [jjcscribe]
- ABSTAIN: deb, jos
- 18:07:31 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, who is on the call?
- 18:07:32 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Guus, M_Smith, IanH, Jeff, JosDR, HermantH, Jim_Hendler, Marwan_Sabbouh, Mcguinness, Mike_Dean, PatH, Jjc., NickG, Jonathan, Peter_PS
- 18:08:50 [jjcscribe]
- discussion of level of abstention
- 18:09:40 [jjcscribe]
- CHAIR comment, more inclined to reopen this issue if necessary, or with alternative proposal
- 18:09:47 [jjcscribe]
- RESOLVED
- 18:10:33 [jjcscribe]
- datatypes
- 18:10:48 [jjcscribe]
- Peter's proposal has been well-received
- 18:11:54 [jjcscribe]
- Question about point 4
- 18:15:02 [jjcscribe]
- jonathan raised point with tag about the lack of consistent way to define a URI for user defined datatype
- 18:15:45 [jjcscribe]
- daml+oil define a way, but it isn't blessed
- 18:19:07 [jjcscribe]
- issue 3 using built-ins is problematic becuase of equality, but ...
- 18:20:02 [jjcscribe]
- jonathan xsd proposal give scomplex uri which will need to be parsed
- 18:20:26 [jjcscribe]
- peter's proposal is just the simple part
- 18:22:19 [jjcscribe]
- jim proposes that we accept 1,2,3 and 5 and leave part 4 open for now
- 18:23:36 [jjcscribe]
- q+
- 18:26:33 [jjcscribe]
- action jjc draft a message for wg consideration as msg to tag about item 4 in peter's proposal
- 18:28:03 [jjcscribe]
- chair: can we accept 1,2,3a nd 5
- 18:28:13 [jjcscribe]
- jjc: problems with xsd:duration equality ...
- 18:29:15 [Zakim]
- -Marwan_Sabbouh
- 18:30:03 [jjcscribe]
- 5.13 mime type includes parameter to indicate entailment mechanism
- 18:30:20 [jjcscribe]
- (jonathan described this)
- 18:32:48 [jjcscribe]
- 15.23 hasValue
- 18:32:58 [jjcscribe]
- Ian can't live with it being in owl:lite
- 18:33:15 [jjcscribe]
- DebMcG can't live with it being out
- 18:33:32 [jjcscribe]
- May well go to vote.
- 18:34:19 [jjcscribe]
- Conversation to mailing list ... on this one
- 18:34:35 [jjcscribe]
- Telecon ends
- 18:34:37 [Zakim]
- -M_Smith
- 18:34:43 [Zakim]
- -JosDR
- 18:34:47 [Zakim]
- -Jeff
- 18:34:47 [Zakim]
- -Jjc.
- 18:34:49 [Zakim]
- -PatH
- 18:34:49 [Zakim]
- -NickG
- 18:34:49 [Zakim]
- -Peter_PS
- 18:34:50 [Zakim]
- -IanH
- 18:34:52 [Zakim]
- -Jonathan
- 18:34:53 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Dean
- 18:35:05 [Zakim]
- -HermantH
- 18:38:23 [Zakim]
- -Mcguinness
- 18:41:58 [jhendler_]
- actions
- 18:42:05 [jhendler_]
- zakim, list actions
- 18:42:07 [Zakim]
- I see Styl_XSL WG()1:00PM, SW_WebOnt()12:00PM
- 18:44:20 [jhendler_]
- RRSAgents, list actions
- 18:45:07 [jhendler_]
- RRSAgent, list actions
- 18:45:07 [RRSAgent]
- I see 1 open action item:
- 18:45:07 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Mike Smith to coordinate with Chris about write up of owl:imports issue (Chris' open issue) [1]
- 18:45:07 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2002/12/05-webont-irc#T17-28-03
- 18:48:46 [Zakim]
- -Guus
- 18:48:48 [Zakim]
- -Jim_Hendler
- 18:48:50 [Zakim]
- SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended