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Minutes for 1 July 2002 TAG teleconference
Nearby: Teleconference details · issues list · www-tag archive
1. Administrative (15min)
- Confirm scribe: IJ
- Roll call: TBL, CL, SW, RF, IJ. Regrets: DO, PC, TB, NW, DC
- Accept this agenda
- Next meeting: 8 July. Regrets: TBL
- Accepted 24 June minutes
- Confirmed status of completed
actions
- IJ: Ask TBL to take ownership of issue
xlinkScope-23. Done. Refer to TimBL proposal for
when to use XLink.
- IJ: Ask SW to send a thank-you to the XMLP WG regarding SOAP/GET. See
their email to
TAG regarding MIME types.
- IJ: Ask SW to write thank-you to XMLP WG. See Stuart's
email to XMLP WG Chair.
2. Technical
- Review SOAP in last call?
- xlinkScope-23
- Arch Document / httpRange-14
SW: The XMLP WG has asked the TAG whether they will review the SOAP 1.0
specification in last call.
RF, SW: SOAP 1.2 is not sufficiently architectural in scope (in the way
the CharMod spec was).
Resolved: The TAG does not intend to commit
to a complete review of the last call document. The XMLP WG should indicate
whether there is a particular issue having architectural scope they want us
to look at.
Action SW: Respond to XMLP WG on behalf of
TAG
Proposal from TBL.
In particular, "You should use xlink whenever your application is one of
hypertext linking, as xlink functionality such as power to control user
interface behavior on link traversal is useful and should be implemented in a
standard way to allow interoperability."
- [Chris]
- I agree with him about that use of hypertext links
- [Ian]
- RF: I never understood why xlink:href existed. I just use "href"
myself.
- [Chris]
- I am totally amazed at people claiming that human-understandable
terms mean something for attribute values
- You cannot assume that class, id, href etc happen to mean
something!!
- href *in the xlink namespace* yes
- [Ian]
- RF: In the actual documents used by people across a wide range of
XML, "href" is consistently used to contain a URI or URI reference." So
putting "xlink:href", while it makes us semantically clean in terms of
the XML Processing model, the reality is that it doesn't make any
difference.
- SW: In order for a language to make use of xlink:href, what does it
have to import?
- CL: You must declare xlink namspace and use namespace mechanism.
- [TimBL]
- <thermostat cref="19C" href="37C"/>
- [Chris]
- Classic example.
- [Roy]
- Stupid example. Try using that in practice and users will be
upset.
- [Chris]
- As a concrete example - take an svg file, and declare the "xlink"
prefix to a different URL not the XLink one. Your links stops
working/
- wheras if you declare xmlns:toto fr the XLink namespace URI, it works
of course
- [Ian]
- TBL: If you aren't mixing languages, a namespace defines both syntax
and semantics. When you dereference a namespace identifiers, you only
get the syntactic bit back.
- [Chris]
- It's like assuming that an attribute called id is of type ID. It
isn't.
- [Ian]
- TBL: When you mix namespaces, it works with RDF but not XML.
- [Chris]
- <suit style="double breasted:/>
- <social class="proletariat"/>
- [Ian]
- TBL: With namespaces, if attribute name is not namespace qualified,
the attribute is in the element partition on that namespace.
- SW: The meaning is scoped by the element that contains it.
- CL: And if you find same (unqualified) attrib name on another
element, can't say anything about relationship to other (unqualified)
attrib name.
- RF: I understand the theory, but the practice is that meaning is how
it's used.
- TBL: Is there software that looks a "href" in generic XML and assumes
the value is a URI?
- RF: I don't know.
- [Chris]
- Thats an interesting question, does the element partition have any
effect on a namespace qualified name
- [Ian]
- RF: I think xlink is not limited to hypertext references; it defines
relationships in general.
- TBL: some questions: (1) Should you bother to use xlink:href, or just
invent your own href? (2) If you use a reference but not a hypertext
reference, should you use xlink:href?
- IJ: Raises the question of the definition of "link" (part of the
architecture document). I think link will not be a useful term; context
is everything. Too many types of links.
- TBL: When we observe that we need the term "link", then we can
consider using it.
- CL: I think there is a need to identify things that are links:
associations that make something part of a whole. There are cases when
URIs are just use as disambiguating ids, and these aren't really links.
Ultimately the question is whether W3C puts itself behind XLink (for
XML grammars).
- SW: This is a piece of the mixed language issue.
- CL: Yes, you need to do actual web pages, not just backend stuff.
- TBL: In the XML Signature world: Take a piece of content, sign it,
transmit it, and unsign in another context - this is a function of the
target specification. With RDF, you can write down the rules of what
happens when you mix statements (meaning of each statement is defined).
So within XML, we can't do anything generic. We can talk about special
domains (e.g., 2 dimensional graphical rendering and how to mix XHTML,
MathML, etc.).
- No resolution.
Resolved: Publish 1 July draft of arch
document.
Action IJ: Publish, asking in particular for
input on issue httpRange-14.
- ACTION IJ 2002/03/18:
Integrate/combine one-page summaries (Revised 1 July)
- ACTION TBL 2002/05/05:
Negotiate more of IJ time for arch doc
- ACTION RF 2002/06/24: Write a paragraph on technical and political
aspects of URIs and URI References.
[Ian]
- Disagreement over "According to [RFC2396] a resource is "anything
that has identity." A resource is part of the Web when there is a URI
that identifies it."
- TBL: Should be URI Reference. Otherwise you can't refer to some
resources.
- RF: We are digging a hole for ourselves by saying that abs URis with
frag ids define a new space.
- RF: URIs point to resources; frag ids are client-side indirect
references.
- TBL: In RDF, there's another indirection - the frag id is not part of
a resource but is about the thing described by the RDF. I have said
many times that the phrase "fragment identifier" is a mistake. The
meaning is completely language-dependent.
- IJ: Are there two self-consistent models here? Which one has
advantages?
- TBL: Yes, I think you could produce two consistent models.
- SW: Seem to be two concepts - identification (speak about it) and
dereferencing (get it). Are we conflating those two notions? Would
ad-hoc time on the phone help?
3. Postponed
- httpRange-14: Need to make
progress here to advance in Arch Document.
- Internet Media Type registration, consistency of
use
- ACTION DC: research the bug in the svg diagram. There are two votes
to remove the diagram (DC and TB).
- ACTION NW 2002/06/24: Produce PNG version of image as well.
- uriMediaType-9:
Status of negotiation with IETF? See message
from DanC.
TBL: Now there is an RFC for URNs. Sounds like IETF is moving towards
URNs and aren't interested in using URIs for media types
- Qnames as
identifiers
- Action NW 2002/06/24: Follow up on Rick
Jelliffe comments/proposal.
- Consistency
of Formatting Property Names, Values, and Semantics
- Status of discussion about this finding?
- Status of URIEquivalence-15. Relation
to Character Model of the Web (chapter 4)? See text from TimBL on URI
canonicalization and email
from Martin in particular.
- RFC3023Charset-21
- ACTION CL 2002/6/03:
Write up the issue in the next day or so. Done
(tag only)
- Status of discussions with WSA WG about SOAP/WSDL/GET/Query strings?
- ACTION DC 2002/06/10: Send note to WSA WG expressing concern about
normative binding for GET.
- ACTION DO 2002/06/24: Contact WSDL WG about this issue (bindings,
query strings and schemas) to ensure that it's on their radar. See discussions
from 24 Jun TAG teleconf.
- Have we closed issue
whenToUseGet-7
- If we get here: namespaceDocument-8
- augmentedInfoset-22
- ACTION DC 2002/06/17: Talk to XML Schema WG about PSVI. Report to
tag, who expects to decide whether to add as an issue next week. Done
(email
to Schema WG).
3.1 New issues?
- Bad practice: Overriding HTTP content-type with a URI reference.See
email from TBL.
Ian Jacobs, for TimBL
Last modified: $Date: 2002/07/01 22:46:54 $